Health Committee on April 15th, 2010

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

May I respond?

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Yes, those were my two questions.

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

It is never easy, you know.

In 2005, company officials examined the situation in the field. In their program and action plan, they made it clear that more vaccine manufacturing capability was required. In 2007, the foundation and the government agreed to work together.

Time passed, and that was a problem. The foundation held a meeting at the start of 2009 and the question was raised. From a scientific standpoint, circumstances had changed owing to trials that had been completed. Furthermore, worldwide vaccine manufacturing capability had continued to increase. Unfortunately, the process outlined to you today had already been initiated.

It was at this point in time that we asked field experts on vaccine manufacturing to do a study. They found that production capacity was quite high, much higher in fact than it had been thought would be needed to meet vaccine requirements for clinical trials.

This wasn't the first time that this had happened, and it's unfortunate for the people who did all of this work, but it is good news. It means that all of the funds earmarked for manufacturing facilities can now be used for other purposes and to accelerate the development of the vaccine.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

I have a second question for you: Where is the money going?

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

We are still in discussion with the government. We know that the top priority is speeding up the production of vaccine. The other broader priority is HIV/AIDS prevention in developing countries. We haven't quite yet wrapped up the discussions and determined what actions will be funded.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

I see.

Would anyone else care to comment on this issue and make some suggestions? Where should the money be spent if no manufacturing facilities are to be established?

[Dr. Alan Bernstein]

I'll try to answer that.

In the spirit of the original memorandum between the Government of Canada and the Gates Foundation--and I agree with you in terms of your impatience to move forward as quickly as possible--I would agree with you and support the notion that the funds continue to align with the enterprise strategic plan. It really represents Canada's alignment with the rest of the world and an explicit recognition that no one country is going to find a vaccine on their own. Canada needs to partner with other partners like the Gates Foundation to contribute to the global efforts.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Are officials with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation somewhat disappointed that following all the hoopla in 2007, the press conference and the announcement of new clinical trial facilities, the realization has dawned today that all of this is unnecessary? Do you not think that the announcement was perhaps premature, that it was all a bit too much at the time?

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

I wasn't around at the time, but I can tell you that it is not the facilities that are important to us. What is important is the partnership that we have forged with the Government of Canada. For us, it was a way of allocating more resources to speed up vaccine production. At the time, production was thought to be the most important consideration, whereas today, it's something else, namely the partnership that is the most important thing to us.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Do you think it is reasonable to have a three-year project timeline, from start to finish?

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

I'm sorry, but I would have to say yes.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you so much, Monsieur Malo.

We'll now go to Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Thanks to all of you for being here today.

I want to start with you, Dr. Stefano Bertozzi. I know that Bill and Melinda Gates are very committed to this project of trying to find a solution to a disease that is infecting 700 a day and killing 400 of those, as Dr. Bernstein said. We have some 43 million children. The numbers are huge. So I know they are committed to finding a solution. They have shown incredible integrity, as we saw yesterday with their commitment to stop funding to IDRC because a board member is involved in Imperial Tobacco.

So, Dr. Bertozzi, now that you know from the scientists and academics, and from those who are intimately involved in this issue on an administrative or a research basis, that in fact there is no basis in the arguments you presented today for rejecting the proposal or the project, I'm wondering if you are prepared to go back and find another way to allow this to move forward. I say that for two reasons. Number one, you know that in fact this proposal from the start was not about a simple production facility. It was about a discovery centre. It was about a place to do clinical trials, and you know that in fact there are, as we've heard from others, enormous breakthroughs in this field, and we need a place to do that clinical trial research. In fact, as we heard from scientists on Tuesday, this is a golden opportunity. Never has it been so important to have this kind of facility to do this work.

Secondly, you know that there is--unless you can produce something today--no evidence to say that any of the four projects that bid on this had scientific or technical or sustainability flaws.

So I'm asking you today, are you prepared to go back to Bill and Melinda Gates and tell them the time is right to put this back on the table, and to either call for a review of the present four bids or say to the Government of Canada, we need this project to get back on the agenda? The $88 million investment was a good one in 2007, and it's as good today as it was then. Are you prepared to go back to the Gates Foundation and make that case?

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

Madam Vice-Chair, we have already said that we are committed to the project. What we don't believe is that there is a need for a production facility--

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Let me interrupt, because I also want you to recognize what everybody else has said at these hearings, and that is that we're not at the stage of a simple production facility; we've got the vaccine and now we can produce it. We're at the stage of discovery. We're at the stage of breakthroughs, as Dr. Bernstein said--in Thailand, a 31% success rate. We're at the stage now of needing a non-profit facility to do the research, involving clinical trials. It's something that can't be done and won't be done in the private sector, in those centres that this study, the Oliver Wyman study, identified. Therefore, we're back to square one. We need this centre. We need this research facility. We need this production facility that allows for Canadian scientists to work in connection with global scientists.

So are you prepared on that basis to say it's time to restart that initial dream and get it going before we miss this golden opportunity?

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

I'm having a--

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I can't imagine Bill and Melinda Gates not wanting this to proceed, given the knowledge we've just heard today and Tuesday.

[Dr. Stefano Bertozzi]

We absolutely want this to proceed. What we don't believe is that there is a need for a production facility at this point.

That there is need for continued investment by Canada and the Gates Foundation in accelerating vaccine development, we are absolutely in agreement. Now, to what extent that happens in one centre, or in multiple centres, to what extent that happens more in Canada or more in Africa, those are exactly the kinds of questions that need to be worked out in terms of repurposing the construction of a manufacturing facility.

So whether that ends up being a centre of research or something else, that's exactly the kind of discussion we're in right now.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Dr. Bernstein, I think you made a case for this project to be restarted, maybe calling it a new strategic plan, but I think I read into your comments that we need to get back to this dream that was spelled out with such excitement by Prime Minister Harper and Bill Gates in 2007.

Are you prepared to find a way to get this project kick-started and to get it going as quickly as possible, so we don't miss the golden opportunity that Thailand and other trials have presented to us?

[Dr. Alan Bernstein]

I have two objectives here today, from the point of view of the enterprise. One is that we need a vaccine.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Right.

[Dr. Alan Bernstein]

I believe—and that's why I took this position—the best way for us as a country and as a planet is to work together, aligned with a common strategic plan. Science changes. The world changes. What is true in 2010, fortunately, was not true in 2005. We have made progress, so we are working on a new plan that is trying to build on the very exciting progress that you heard from me, from Dr. Bertozzi, and from Dr. Carver, both at the scientific and at the clinical level.

I hope the Canada-Gates partnership, which was initially planned to be committed to the plan--not to a manufacturing facility but as a partnership committed to the enterprise strategic plan--will retain that commitment and help both to kick-start funding from the partnership and Canada's involvement through that to contribute to the global efforts.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Will you at least acknowledge that the proposal as envisaged in 2007 was not for a production factory? It was for a discovery research centre to produce drugs on a clinical trial basis to be used on human clients, because we have to... I mean, that's where the science is at and that is what every scientist is telling us. Given that, can you not stand today and say we have to have something similar to what was envisaged in 2007, because we've made more progress, not less progress, with respect to trials--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, I'm sorry, you're not paying attention to the chair. I have to cut you off--