Evidence of meeting #74 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Julie Pelletier
Brigitte Gagné  Executive Director, Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité
Bradley Dibble  Cardiologist, As an Individual
Rob Ballagh  Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery, McMaster University; Adjunct Professor of Otolaryngology, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual
Michaël Béland  Communications and Programs Manager, Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Happy Valentine's Day, everybody.

We have two more guests who are on their way. They are in a meeting right now and they'll be on their way shortly.

We want to start on time so that everyone has the lovely opportunity of asking you questions.

We're going to proceed with you giving a 10-minute presentation. Following that, if they're not here yet, we'll go directly to questions, just so we don't waste any time. I'll make sure everybody has an equal amount of time so that everyone can get everything in. I think that's the most prudent thing to do.

We have with us Madame Gagné, executive director, and Michaël Béland, communications and programs manager for—and you'll have to pronounce this for me.

3:35 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Julie Pelletier

It is the Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

You'll be happy to know that I'm taking French lessons. But I don't want to embarrass myself by mispronouncing things.

I welcome you. You have 10 minutes for a presentation. Please begin.

3:35 p.m.

Brigitte Gagné Executive Director, Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité

Thank you, Madame Chair.

First, we would like to thank you and the members of the committee for your invitation to present on the cooperatives in the health sector. My presentation will be in French, but we also speak English—with a big accent. We can answer in the way you would prefer.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We have translation, so we're good.

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité

Brigitte Gagné

During the International Year of Co-operatives, which just ended, we made a presentation to the Special Committee on Co-operatives on the issues and specific characteristics of the Canadian co-operative movement.

We would like to bring your attention to the following recommendations. First, spur the development of new health care co-operatives by building partnership agreements with local health care networks and by offering start-up financial support. Second, clarify the rules regarding annual contributions made by members of health care co-operatives. Third, acknowledge the investment made by members of health care co-operatives by allowing them to claim their contributions as medical expenses. Fourth, promote the development of new health care co-operatives in order to create new drivers of innovation adapted to the specific needs of communities. And lastly, set up a committee to study the opportunities for complementarity between the heath care co-operative model and the development of health service offerings in Canada.

The following supports our recommendations.

The Canadian health care system has some undeniable strengths, including access to a variety of basic services for all citizens. Some serious dysfunctions must nevertheless be acknowledged. Co-operatives arise out of the desire of a group of individuals to meet a collective social, economic or cultural need. They pool their resources and skills to achieve it. They equip themselves with means and expertise they would not have had access to without the co-operative. They follow the co-operative principles of democracy—one member, one vote—financial participation, autonomy, intercooperation and engagement in their community. When we talk about the principle of accessibility, we are referring to the Canada Health Act.

The health care co-operatives concept is both simple and innovative: a community identifies common health care access needs or new health service requirements. Next, it establishes a co-operative offering free or competitively priced facilities, equipment, technological tools and administrative services to health professionals and/or physicians. They tag on complementary services, such as health prevention services, as determined by members.

A health care co-operative can be defined as a collective enterprise which produces services to promote, maintain and improve the health and living conditions of communities, while involving its members in the organization of its services, at the decision-making level. The members define and manage the co-operative's services and investments to suit their needs. This democratic management ensures that services offered match local needs.

Members agree to fund the co-operative's operations through qualifying shares, annual contributions and donations. Most such co-operatives receive absolutely no funding for their operational costs.

It must be noted here that the co-operative does not purport to offer health services, but rather it aims to ensure access to such services on its territory. It considers itself as having a dual role. First, it provides a competitively priced modern professional environment. Next, the co-operative aims to improve access to various health services by becoming actively involved in the hiring of physicians and other professionals, and by offering health prevention or support services to address local health problems.

While rental activities can generate independent revenues, all of the co-operative's other activities—equipment, administrative services and so on—do not generate any revenue at all, and it cannot rely on any public support. That is why members' contributions and donations from the community are requested to fund this portion of its activities. By collectively assuming this structure's operating costs, the community becomes attractive to such professionals.

It is also noteworthy that in 54% of cases, these co-operatives create a new service in the community, while in the remaining 46%, they replace a clinic that has closed or that is at risk of closing.

Doctors who decide to practice in a co-operative are paid by their provincial public system. No part of their salary is borne by members. In return, access to the physician's services is open to the entire population, to both members and non-members alike, without restriction.

Individual and collective empowerment, which are the values underlying the co-operative model, are the core elements of health care co-operatives. Rather than being mere consumers of health services, members of co-operatives are involved in their own health care and take part in the necessary follow-up. They are also asked to get involved in prevention activities.

The co-operative movement also believes in collective health management. It is managed democratically by a board of directors made up of elected members, and all members can vote at the annual general meeting on policy matters. Thus, the community determines not only how it wishes to shape its local health service delivery, but also how members will fund these projects.

We believe that between the private and the public sector, there is room for the co-operative. Health care co-operatives do not represent a privatization of health services. Rather, they are a partner which alleviates the public system's task by improving access to first-line health services and offering supplementary services. They are not-for-profit organizations that allow citizens to invest in local access to publicly funded health services.

Health co-operatives represent a wonderful opportunity for the Canadian health care system. They are an additional collective investment in access and in primary health care coverage. In that respect, this model represents a partnership opportunity for governments and communities to improve the delivery of health services. It gives back to the individual the power to manage his or her health and gives the community better access to health services.

The creation of a health care co-operative requires the involvement of many volunteers, as well as the financial commitment of thousands of members. Add to this challenge that of developing a partnership agreement with local public health authorities.

This exercise is difficult and tedious. We are dealing with small community organizations, a group of volunteers who are working to create their co-operative. Lack of funding at this stage can often discourage volunteers or slow down the project significantly.

We also believe that the government would benefit by acting as a facilitator for such communities looking to manage this crucial phase in the shaping of their local health care services. This support could take various forms, depending on the needs of the co-operative. Health care co-operatives are young, and their activities cost the government nothing. In fact they may lead to savings.

Since health care co-operatives are financially independent, they come at no operational cost to the government. By improving access to health services and by offering prevention services, these co-operatives allow the Canadian health system to better fulfill its mission and to avoid short-, medium- and long-term costs.

We believe it should be acknowledged that by voluntarily deciding to reinvest in our health system, members of health care co-operatives are first and foremost doing something positive for our society. They should be allowed to claim their contributions as medical expenses on their tax return.

The direct relationship between the members and managers of co-operatives requires ongoing innovation. In fact, members are quite demanding of their co-operative. They want to have concrete proof of how their additional contributions to the health care service offerings affect their access to these services.

The following are a few examples: the implementation of a telehealth service in order to give members in remote communities access to a public system doctor in Nova Scotia; the creation of a mobile medical clinic to service remote communities in British Columbia; the integration of a public emergency service and a medical clinic on the same floor in Beauce, Quebec; the creation of adapted services for the Native population—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Excuse me. You're out of time now. We're over time.

Can I ask you to quickly sum up?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Conseil canadien de la coopération et de la mutualité

Brigitte Gagné

In conclusion, I would say that the co-operative model is first and foremost centred on the individual. We believe this model is one of the innovative solutions that can potentially maximize taxpayers' investment in their public health system.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you.

Keep in mind that there will be questions and answers, so you can get anything in that you really want to.

We have Dr. Bradley Dibbie. You're a cardiologist, Dr. Dibbie?

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Bradley Dibble Cardiologist, As an Individual

It's Dibble.

Yes, I am.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

I'm blind in one eye and can't see in the other, Doctor, so I'm having challenges up here. Sorry.

Thank you very much.

You have just arrived, and I hope you enjoyed your meeting. It's very nice to have you here.

We also have Dr. Rob Ballagh as an individual. Did I pronounce your name correctly, Doctor?

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Rob Ballagh Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery, McMaster University; Adjunct Professor of Otolaryngology, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual

Yes, you did. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We are very pleased to have you here.

We were so pleased to have our first individuals. Ms. Gagné started with the presentation before you came, so we wouldn't be behind. What we're going to do now is go individually. We're going to start with Dr. Dibble. You'll have ten minutes, Doctor. Then we will finish off with Mr. Ballagh.

Do you have a presentation that you want to put on the screen?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery, McMaster University; Adjunct Professor of Otolaryngology, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We'll hear Dr. Dibble first, and then you'll have the time to do that.

You have ten minutes, Doctor. Welcome.

3:45 p.m.

Cardiologist, As an Individual

Dr. Bradley Dibble

Thank you very much.

I apologize for my tardiness, but Valentine's Day is a very important day to a cardiologist, as I'm sure you can appreciate. The last time I checked, I wasn't aware of any other organs that had a special day devoted to them.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Because you're here, you're very special and we have something for you, do we not, Tanya?

Happy Valentine's Day.

3:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:45 p.m.

Cardiologist, As an Individual

Dr. Bradley Dibble

Thank you very much.

I don't need to remind anybody sitting around this table that Canada is a vast country, but I wanted to share with you some specific statistics, courtesy of the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada.

One in seven rural physicians plans to leave their community within the next two years, threatening already underserviced areas.

Of Canada's 10 million square kilometres, 99.8% are considered rural by definition.

Nine million Canadians, which amounts to 31.4% of all Canadians, live in those rural areas.

Towns that account for a population under 10,000 are 22% of Canada, but are served by only 10.1% of Canadian physicians, so they have less than half the ratio they should have.

Larger rural and regional centres—that's between 10,000 and 100,000 population—constitute 15.9% of the population but have only 11.9% of Canada's physicians.

So right there, half of all Canadians are underserviced.

The doctor shortage is a severe problem. Many people are working hard to help. Both Dr. Ballagh and I have sat with Barrie's member of Parliament, Patrick Brown, on a physician recruitment task force, trying to attract doctors to Barrie, but the problem isn't going to be solved overnight. Yet in the meantime, things can be done to help these people. A lot of patients do not have family doctors, and as a specialist I'm concerned that they also then don't have access to specialists such as me, because you need the family doctor to access the specialists, especially in these remote areas.

This problem doesn't have to be as severe as it is, however. With the connectivity of the modern world, allowing everyone to be linked by things like e-mail and text messages, Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, and Skype, there's no reason that these people can't access their specialist and their family physicians remotely. The technology exists today. This isn't something that has to be developed in the future.

I provide a few examples.

There's simulated training whereby primary care physicians working in rural areas don't even need to have the specialist on hand. They can learn the critical skills they need to have remotely by using simulated patients. These patients will breathe, moan, move, and verbalize, they can be intubated, they can be given medications, they can have tubes inserted into the various cavities in their bodies, and they will respond appropriately. So if mistakes are made, the lessons will be learned. This kind of training allows rural physicians in remote areas to learn the kinds of skill sets they need.

There's also remote video resuscitation. You don't always have to have a physician present. Many places don't have physicians on staff there. These resuscitation teams consist of nurses, maintenance staff, health attendants, and even members of the community—anybody who's interested in participating in that kind of a team.

Cameras can be used and are aimed at both the patient and at the equipment, and the physician from a remote area will offer the advice and the direction of where the resuscitation needs to go.

There's also robotic telemedicine, specifically in Nain, Newfoundland and Labrador, which is the most northern community in that province. There are no physicians on site, but there's a robot named Rosie. She's 165 centimetres tall, so just a little taller, I think, than I am. She has a screen for her face, and she has two-way audio and video capabilities so that a physician in a remote area can use a joystick and have her move from patient to patient; interact directly with the patient; see what she needs to see, whether that's looking at the patient or the pill bottle or the chart; and can offer the needed advice.

Doctor in a Box is something that can be carried to various places, such as the EMS teams when a physician will not be at the scene when an ambulance picks them up. It will be able to see not only what's going on, but will be able to receive the telemetry from the heart rhythms picked up and will be able to provide advice to them directly so that the patient is getting expert care right off the bat.

Surgical robotic systems are another thing that can perform surgery remotely using state-of-the-art robotics. Those types of systems tend to be reserved for large academic hospitals, but less impressive systems can still be employed elsewhere in remote regions where surgeons with expertise can simply monitor what's happening with the OR, using two-way audio and video capabilities. So a surgeon with a greater skill set can instruct and advise a surgeon with a lesser skill set who's physically on the scene. They can see the operative field and they can see what's happening with the patient.

Finally, there are telehealth consults. As a cardiologist, I would say 90% of the diagnoses I make are taken from the patient's history. Although performing a physical exam is helpful, it's not always so critical to be able to offer care to these patients. If I had the ability to interact with them remotely and had an echocardiogram whereby I could see the images done by a skilled technologist, I'd be able to help these patients impressively.

You'll see that most of these technologies have two-way audio-video capabilities.

Rosie and Doctor in a Box aren't as widespread as I think they need to be in a country like this. And nothing I've described here uses any technology that doesn't already exist. This would allow people like me to run remote clinics all over the province, all over the country, and I think all these patients deserve this kind of access. In a country as great as Canada is, but as vast as Canada is, I think one goal for our country is to be able to provide everybody, no matter where they live, that kind of access to care, both primary care and specialist care, and with these sorts of technologies, that can be done.

Thank you very much for your time.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you very much, Doctor.

I must say, Dr. Dibble, we had a presentation on the robot Rosie, and it was just amazing to see what she could do. Thank you for bringing that to our attention once again.

Now we'll go to our next guest, Dr. Ballagh.

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery, McMaster University; Adjunct Professor of Otolaryngology, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual

Dr. Rob Ballagh

I am a specialist in otolaryngology, head and neck surgery, in Barrie, Ontario. I also work in Collingwood, Ontario, Orillia, Ontario, and two days a month I travel five hours each way north to work in Kirkland Lake, Ontario. My patients know me as their ear, nose, and throat specialist.

As a surgeon in one of the fastest growing parts of our great country, I was really delighted to be invited by the Standing Committee on Health to address this hearing.

Since my arrival in the community of Barrie almost 20 years ago, I have been involved in innovation in the health care system's delivery model at almost every level. An interest in teaching young doctors led me to volunteer my time to the rural Ontario medical program to bring medical learners, medical students and residents-in-training, to Barrie to be partnered with experienced, hard-working, front-line physicians and surgeons for what for many turn out to be life-changing learning experiences. Many of these young doctors have chosen, upon completion of their training, to return to underserviced communities like Barrie to practise their craft.

I am now an assistant clinical professor of surgery at McMaster University and an adjunct professor of otolaryngology, head and neck surgery, at the University of Western Ontario.

As a continual innovator in medical education, I am most proud of the association I forged in the past decade with the Health Services Training Centre at Canadian Forces Base Borden, where I am a preceptor and lecturer in their physician assistants training program. Working and teaching these highly professional, skilled soldiers has allowed me to indirectly impact the lives and health of many in our military, and indeed many civilians treated by our military doctors and physician assistants around the world.

I completed my medical school and residency training at the University of Western Ontario in 1993. Thereafter, I spent an extra year of training at Cambridge University, in England, where I studied and became an expert in diseases and disorders of the ear, including disorders that cause dizziness and imbalance. In my specialty, and in my community, I am known to the doctors as the “Dizzy Doctor”.

The diagnosis of a patient with a dizziness disorder is one of the toughest jobs in clinical medicine. I remember nights when my father, a small town family doctor, would come home exhausted, telling us how he'd been discussing dizziness problems with only two or three patients that day. The differential diagnosis, the list of possibilities of the causes of dizziness, can seem endless at the beginning of a patient interview.

Vestibular disorders, or disorders of the organ of balance of the inner ear, are some of the most fascinating dizziness conditions, but also some of the most elusive to diagnose. You have all heard, I am sure, of labyrinthitis, a severe dizziness disorder that is caused by a viral infection of the inner ear. You might be surprised, however, to learn that very few doctors have seen and correctly recognized this disorder, which is actually the commonest inner ear disorder causing acute vertigo. Patients with inner ear disorders can be very ill one day and very well the next day. Indeed, some are very dizzy for a few seconds every night when they go to bed and they are symptom-free every other minute of the day.

In medicine, we're taught to take look at the history of a problem and then to do a physical examination of the patient to look for findings. The problem with most inner ear disorders is that when the patient is not dizzy, which is most of the time, they haven't got any findings. When vertiginous, with a disorder like labyrinthitis, a patient will have several findings—they'll get sweaty, their heart will race, they'll complain of nausea—but these are all findings that are non-specific. They're findings that are shared with other disorders. They're findings that I’m feeling right now in this committee room—

3:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery, McMaster University; Adjunct Professor of Otolaryngology, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual

Dr. Rob Ballagh

And there are other items on that differential diagnosis list.

But one finding that's very reliable during an inner ear event is nystagmus, a rhythmic, involuntary eye movement in which the eyes dance back and forth in the patient's head. When you see it, as a diagnostician, it seals the diagnosis. Quite often it even tells us which ear the problem is arising in—not always an obvious thing. Treatment, now that the diagnosis is confirmed, can commence immediately.

The problem is the nystagmus is only visible during the event, which can be measured in minutes and sometimes a few hours. So early on in my practice, I found my inability to know what the eyes of my patients were doing during their dizzy attacks to be frustrating. I would write notes to their doctors that they would carry in their wallets and purses, asking them to document the eye movements of the patient if they presented with dizziness. But try getting in to see your family doctor in the next hour, or to see an emergency room doctor within six hours. It's very difficult.

Then one day something very interesting happened to me, and I hope to be able to share a version of it with you today. A lady came to see me for a second visit for her dizziness. I was convinced, having done my comprehensive history and physical examination on her first visit, both of which were normal, that she probably did not have a vestibular inner ear disorder. Two minutes after she sat down on the stretcher in my exam room, she did the most remarkable thing: she had an attack of Ménière's disease. She became very pale and distressed, she started to lean over at a funny angle, and her eyes started to beat very rapidly from right to left for 20 minutes

I learned a great many things in those 20 minutes, but the most important thing I learned was that my initial impression of that lady had been incorrect. Immediately afterwards I started to encourage my patients to shoot video of their eye movements during the height of their dizzy attacks.

I hope to be able to show you a version of this during the hearing.

After nine years of this pioneering work, started in Barrie, Ontario, by me, with my digital camera and now my smart phone, I have shared my observations with dizziness specialists across the country, and indeed with my Cambridge connections around the world. We have made many new medical discoveries in Barrie, Ontario, and we have seen things we could not explain, raising new questions where we did not realize we even had questions before.

If this will work, and if I am not out of time, I want to show you a very short—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

You have time. Please, go ahead.

Even if you didn't have the time, I would push it somehow.

We really want to see this.

4 p.m.

Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery, McMaster University; Adjunct Professor of Otolaryngology, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual

Dr. Rob Ballagh

I want you to have a look at this lady who has Ménière's disease in her right ear. We are treating it very aggressively at the moment. Because she has gotten worse lately, she's convinced she has Ménière's disease developing in her left ear. She has had no objective physical findings in my office, and her hearing test in the left ear is normal. The only way I can know which ear is causing her problems is to look at her eye movements.

There she is. You can see her eyes are beading very briskly in the leftward direction, toward her left eye.

I received that video, and the reason I chose it wasn't that it was the best-quality video—I have a better-quality video I could show, if you are interested—it was because I received it an hour after I received an invitation to join your committee today.

For this lady, it was the lynchpin in her diagnosis. What it means is that her Ménière's disease in her right ear is acting up. It is worse. I need to take her treatment of that Ménière's disease in her right ear to the next level, a level that could involve destructive changes in the inner ear. In fact, I could end up having to deafen her inner ear on that side in order to make this better. It's much better, though, to treat that ear than to treat an ear that is actually healthy and that she suspected was abnormal.