Evidence of meeting #79 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was drugs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Rachlis  As an Individual
Marc-André Gagnon  Assistant Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual
Steven Morgan  Associate Professor, Associate Director, Centre for Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

Dr. Steven Morgan Associate Professor, Associate Director, Centre for Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation to speak today.

I am going to keep my remarks to pharmaceutical policy and the management of pharmaceutical technologies, in part, because I run a research network funded by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, which involves experts in pharmaceutical policy at universities across Canada, and in part because I host an annual meeting of decision-makers in the pharmaceutical sector from 12 countries around the world that are reasonably comparable to Canada. And so I bring some insights gathered over years of research and knowledge exchanged both with academics and policy-makers on this file.

Pharmaceuticals are arguably the biggest technological cost driver in the Canadian health care system. Data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information suggest that from 1980 to 2005, pharmaceuticals were by far the fastest-growing component of health care costs. Pharmaceutical spending during this era in Canada grew elevenfold. No other component of the health care system grew more than fivefold over the same period.

Today we are spending more on pharmaceuticals than we are on all of the care provided by all of the doctors in this country. Pharmaceuticals are also a good case for understanding the financial impacts of technology in health care, in part, frankly, because Canada does such an exceptionally bad job of managing this cost driver.

First, it is important to say and be clear that drugs can and do save lives and improve the health of patients and populations. Waves of new drugs have come to market since the 1960s that have expanded the range of conditions that we can now treat out of hospital in quite a considerable way. Some of these drugs are unquestionably cost-effective and value for money in our health care system, but no new technology commands its own utilization.

It is systems that drive the financial impact of technological change in health care. People often talk about the idea of unleashing innovation in health care systems, but, in fact, systems ought to be designed to very carefully harness innovation so that we get the best possible improvements in the level and distribution of health in our population for the investments we are making.

The problem in Canada is that nobody holds the reins in the pharmaceutical sector. We are the only system in the world that offers universal coverage of medical and hospital care yet excludes the prescription drugs used outside the hospital. Our patchwork of private and public drug plans in Canada effectively leaves nobody in charge of managing this critically important component of the health care system.

What is the result? Paradoxically, our fragmented system means that many Canadians are unable to use the drugs that perhaps they should. Last year my colleague Michael Law and I published a paper in the Canadian Medical Association Journal showing that one in ten Canadians cannot afford to fill the prescriptions their doctors write for them. By international standards, that is a very poor record on access to medicines and therefore a very poor record on access to important health technologies.

Yet spending on pharmaceuticals in Canada is greater and growing faster than in every other OECD country, with the exception of the United States, which is hardly a lofty comparator for us as a nation, given that the U.S. has the most expensive health care system in the world, .

A study by my colleagues and I published a few years ago in the British Medical Journal showed that in British Columbia, 80% of the increase in prescription drug costs from 1996 to 2003 was attributable to the use of new, patented medicines that had entered into therapeutic categories established by earlier innovations. What was important about that finding was that these newer patented medicines were priced, on average, at four times the level of older generic alternatives within the same therapeutic categories.

People in the federal government would be right to point out that we have a system that limits the list prices of medicines in Canada to levels established by list prices of medicines in seven comparator countries. While list prices may be in fact kept to levels found in other countries, this does not equate to management of the pharmaceutical technologies in question.

Per capita spending on pharmaceuticals in Canada was well below the median in our seven comparator countries during the 1980s. This was just before waves of blockbuster drugs came to market in therapeutic classes that still dominate the pharmaceutical sector today: drugs for gastrointestinal disorders, anti-depressants, hypertension drugs, cholesterol medicines, asthma treatments, and the like.

During the era of the blockbuster drug, pharmaceutical costs in Canada grew faster than most other OECD countries. In fact, by 1997, per capita spending on pharmaceuticals in Canada was then equal to the median of the seven comparator countries that we use for pharmaceutical price regulations.

At that time, the National Forum on Health had called for universal first-dollar pharmacare, in part because it was clear that would be an effective mechanism for managing pharmaceutical technologies and the costs they impose on the health care system. We did not move forward on the recommendation for a universal pharmacare system as per the call from the National Forum on Health, and since then per capita spending on pharmaceuticals in Canada has continued to outpace other OECD countries.

As of 2010, the most recent year for which data are available, per capital spending on pharmaceuticals in Canada has exceeded the median of our seven comparator countries by $280. To put this in perspective, if we had held our spending at the level of our median comparators over this period, we would now be spending $9 billion a year less than we are today—that's $9 billion, with a “b”.

The root cause of our trouble in managing pharmaceutical costs is that our system is fragmented. Again, it bears emphasizing that no reasonable comparator country with universal health insurance excludes prescription drugs from the management and financing of health care.

Because pharmaceuticals are integral to all health care systems of our comparator countries, the managers and the practitioners in those systems have far greater opportunity and incentive to consider very carefully the value proposition of pharmaceutical technologies. They would have appropriate incentive to adopt technologies that are of value for money and to reject those that are not. They would also have more purchasing power and legitimate authority in price negotiation with suppliers.

The pharmaceutical industry is changing today, and changing quite dramatically. I believe Canada needs to be prepared to manage these changes, in particular to manage the changes in technology that we can expect over the next decade.

First, increased generic availability is currently providing us with a window of opportunity for considerable savings. Patent expiry is in effect the end of the innovation cycle in any sector, including pharmaceuticals, and it offers a tremendous opportunity for payers to secure real value from innovations of yesterday. International evidence shows that universal coverage of generics is the best mechanism to secure savings for payers, access for patients, and rewards for manufacturers who are willing to compete on price.

Once we have a system in place to secure generic savings, we must be prepared for the changes in technology coming from the patented pharmaceutical sector. The pharmaceutical industry's research and development pipeline is currently filled with specialized drugs that come at very high costs. We used to think in pharmaceutical policy that hundreds of dollars per patient was an expensive price for a drug. Then it was thousands of dollars per patient. Now it is hundreds of thousands of dollars per patient for drugs used to treat specialized diseases and conditions. We need to develop a national strategy for sorting out the innovations that represent value for money and, frankly, for saying no to the rest. It's a tough political challenge, and I think we need a national framework for it.

Finally, the global pharmaceutical industry is making a profound change in its pricing paradigm for these technologies. In a sense, today's list prices for pharmaceuticals are tantamount to list prices found on auto dealership lots. Nobody is meant to pay those prices; instead, they are meant to be a starting point for negotiations, where secret rebates will be paid between the manufacturer and the insurer. Those rebates ought to be negotiated on a framework that sets the price at a level that represents value for money in the health care system relative to other investments that could be made. This is a profound change in pricing, and it is a profound challenge for a system that is as fragmented as ours.

I think Canada needs a national strategy for managing these new technologies, for negotiating their prices and, most importantly, for making sure that Canadians can access the care or technology they may need, and that no patient and in fact no province is left paying artificially inflated prices when they do so.

Thank you very much.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you very much, Doctor, for your insightful comments.

I just want to remind the committee that we will be suspending at 5:15 to go over some points of business that have to be brought to the committee. We'll have a very short business meeting.

That said, we'll go into our first seven minutes of Qs and As with Ms. Davies, please.

March 19th, 2013 / 4:05 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Thank you to our guests who are appearing today. I know that each of you is considered a real expert in your field. You do a lot of research and I think you've given us a lot of really illuminating information.

I do find it ironic that as Canadians we're so proud of our health care system, yet when we look at the facts and see how the costs are going up, we don't seem to be tackling what I think Dr. Morgan said are some of the root causes of the cost drivers. For example, the cost of drugs is going up so high, yet we don't seem to be able to rein that in and have the systems in place to deal with it. I think your testimony today is very important in helping us, one, understand the problem and, two, giving us some ideas about what we need to do. I'd like to pursue that.

Dr. Gagnon, I know that one of the programs you've proposed is something called “reference pricing”, similar to what we see in New Zealand. I wonder if you could just explain it for us, because I think that once we understand what the problem is, the next thing is, what should we be doing about it? There are models out there, as you've said. What is the reference pricing and why is it a better system?

Also, Dr. Rachlis, at the end of your presentation, you talked about how the federal government, at a minimum, needs to provide a structured support. I wonder if you would be able to elaborate on that. When we look at the health accord from 2004, we can see that a lot of commitments were made around drug coverage and innovation, yet that seems to have fallen flat. How do we pick up the pieces here? How do we focus on this federal role?

Finally, Dr. Morgan, first of all, congratulations on a very successful conference that was held in Vancouver just recently on this whole question. When you say that we should increase generic availability and that we need a national strategy, how do you envision that coming about? It seems to me that it's critical that the federal government be involved in that. I just wonder what ideas you have.

Those are the questions I have for the three witnesses.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you.

Who would like to begin?

Perhaps we'll start with Dr. Gagnon.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Marc-André Gagnon

On reference-based pricing, first we need to understand how weird the market is for pharmaceuticals. You can imagine this market as a dinner for three, basically. You go for dinner, and there's one guy ordering the meal, the physician. He's prescribing the product, but does not pay for it and doesn't care, as he doesn't have budget constraints. Then you have the patient, who is eating the meal, and then the drug plan, private or public, that is paying for the meal.

The question is, if you have a very aggressive waiter in terms of promotion and marketing who is saying that you need to take the most expensive meal because that's the best one for you, for sure the third party payer would like to have some words to say in terms of which meal should be ordered, and basically how the payer can get some bang for their buck. Reference pricing is basically just the capacity of the third party payer to say when, based on clinical evidence, there is...some drugs aren't therapeutically equivalent. We need to keep in mind that 80% of the new drugs that arrive in the market do not represent any therapeutic advances compared to already existing drugs.

Reference-based pricing is just saying that we'll set a reference price for this therapeutic category for all drugs considered therapeutically equivalent. Based on that, basically, usually we take the drug with the lowest price, we say that this is what we accept in order to reimburse for the product, and—

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Is this where we could generate a $10 billion saving, from your research?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Marc-André Gagnon

Absolutely.

New Zealand has other ways as well, but reference pricing is really the central way to do that. That's because what you're doing here is a very clever way to use market forces, market competition, in order to lower the price of drugs. You still respect patents. If the drug companies arrive with a new product that does not provide any therapeutic benefit compared to what already exists—

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

You don't lose it.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Marc-André Gagnon

Well, there is no reason why this drug should not be competing with the other already existing drugs.

If you don't put any market competition in place, if you basically agree to pay for any drug that does not represent a therapeutic advantage and pay the full price for that, then there is no financial incentive to drug companies to come forward with new products that do represent a real therapeutic advantage

The real problem here is how to reorganize these financial incentives by using market forces to lower the cost of drugs when there are no therapeutic benefits, but at the same time offering real incentives to drug companies to come forward with innovative therapeutics.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

You have about a minute and a half left.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

I actually had two other questions I directed to Dr. Morgan and to Dr. Rachlis.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

You have a minute and a half.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

I'm turning it over to them to respond.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Okay, go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Michael Rachlis

I'll jump in quickly.

I'm very concerned about the accord. It was weak when it was drafted in actually giving the federal government any control over the $41 billion it planned to transfer to the provinces over 10 years. But even when there were pledges, as there were for a national pharmaceutical strategy—which, just as an example is supposed to enhance action to influence the prescribing behaviour of health care professionals.... I very much agree with the problems that have been outlined about our not having generic drugs, not using therapeutic substitution, all of which would be good things to do. But also, doctors end up prescribing drugs when often no drug would probably be better.

We look toward the next couple of years in the drafting of the next accord. We need to look at the failure of this accord to actually put in the teeth needed to even enforce what was there, as well as the fact that it was probably inadequate to promote reform across the country as it was.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

I'm sorry, the time is up.

We'll now go to Dr. Carrie.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I wanted to start with Dr. Morgan because I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that our system is fragmented. The more I look at this situation, it seems that we have the provinces and territories deciding which drugs they cover, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of strategy or control in looking at what drugs they do cover.

When you've presented this idea of trying to make the system less fragmented, have you actually presented to the Council of the Federation? They seem to be in a position...because the provinces are the lead on this particular issue as far as many of the drugs that are prescribed in Canada. Have you ever talked to them about looking at a way of containing the costs or expenditures on these drugs?

4:15 p.m.

Associate Professor, Associate Director, Centre for Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Steven Morgan

I've not personally had the opportunity to present to the Council of the Federation. I do know that the Health Care Innovation Working Group is currently focusing on generic drug prices, and there have been some interprovincial collaborations around the setting of pricing for generics.

The biggest challenge, frankly, in trying to harmonize the formularies and the contract negotiations between the provincial drug plans and the pharmaceutical manufacturers is the fact that our provincial drug plans vary so dramatically in structure. We have a huge variety of drug benefit plans in this country, and those differences, both in structure and administrative processes, in part, make it difficult for provinces to see a particular drug in the same light in terms of its priority for investment.

One of the next most important steps is to actually try to harmonize coverage, harmonize the structure of how we reimburse medicines, and then you can follow with the harmonization of what's actually being covered. But until you get commonality about who is covered and on what terms, it's difficult to get commonality on what's going to be listed, and particularly on the kind of reimbursement deal there will be.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

I was just wondering if they have ever been presented with the amount of savings they could get if they could come together. I think Dr. Gagnon mentioned $9 billion. That's a phenomenal amount of money.

I wanted to ask you something, Dr. Gagnon, because you mentioned that you'd like to shake up some people at Industry Canada. As we're doing the study on technical innovations, I suppose one of the technological innovations we could look at is a way of analyzing these products.

I was wondering if you could explain to the committee how new drugs are tested today. You mentioned that one can get an old drug, or one can get a new drug. I'm a chiropractor. In Oshawa I used to get people coming in with a lot of arthritis. One person would be on aspirin, but immediately when the COX-2 inhibitors came out, they all wanted that. The aspirin costs 2¢ a tablet and the COX-2 inhibitors at the time were $2 per tablet. At the end of the day, what was the clinical difference in each individual patient? I don't know. Sometimes I'd see a difference, sometimes I wouldn't see any difference at all.

I heard that sometimes we test new drugs against placebos, but there's not necessity of testing a new drug against an old drug. If you're thinking of making recommendations for an innovation, could you tell the committee what we could maybe suggest to Industry Canada—if maybe that's the way we're challenging these drugs, the new drugs on the market? Could you give us some advice?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Marc-André Gagnon

There are two things. To get a drug approved for the market, you simply need to compare it to a placebo and show that its has more benefits than the placebo has. But then to get the drug, especially on provincial public formularies, you need to prove minimally that you can get some bang for the buck if you accept reimbursement for the drugs. This is what we call health technology assessment. This is something a bit different from the approval process with Health Canada. This is with CADTH and the common drug review. Basically, we assess the cost of the drug versus the therapeutic benefits it can provide.

The way the system is now organized in Canada, the CADTH, the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health, provides recommendations to all provinces and based on that, the provinces decide if they will reimburse the drug. They ask themselves, do we get enough bang for the buck? Do they list the drug or not?

But the problem is not there. We have estimated that right now in the United States drug companies spend $61,000 per physician to promote new products. In France it's €25,000. In Canada we estimate it's at least $20,000 per physician to promote the new products. As soon as the drug gets listed, the issue becomes the way the drug is prescribed. Are prescribing habits by physicians such that they will respect evidence-based medicine or will it be more marketing-based medicine, based on promotional campaigns? Promotional campaigns are still very efficient right now. The problem is the health technology assessment must be organized as well with some way of influencing prescribing habits. For example, it can be through academic detailing and stuff.

We need to find some way of translating evidence-based medicine prescribing habits. Right now these prescribing habits are still influenced way too much by marketing campaigns. In the end, we have irrational habits. Atypical antipsychotics, for example, are not shown to have any more clinical benefits than older antipsychotics. They cost 10 times more.

But this problem is all over the place. This is what we're prescribing massively off label as well. These are the problems that we need to tackle. It's not just a question of more innovation, but how you organize the prescribing habits as well.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you.

I was wondering—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

You only have 20 seconds, Dr. Carrie.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

All right.

I was just wondering if other countries have a system where they actually test the drugs a little more carefully.

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Marc-André Gagnon

In the U.K. they will implement something interesting called value-based pricing. Basically, instead of paying for drugs, they will pay for the health outcomes related to these drugs, which is something completely different. You don't pay for the product, you pay for health outcomes. This is something new. This is something we need to follow.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you, Dr. Gagnon.

We now go to Dr. Fry.