Evidence of meeting #84 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ken Milne  Chair, Rural Medicine, Gateway Rural Health Research Institute
Mary Collins  Chair, Chronic Disease Prevention Alliance of Canada
Cameron Norman  Principal, CENSE Research + Design , Adjunct Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Feng Chang  Chair, Rural Pharmacy, Gateway Rural Health Research Institute
Dale Friesen  Chief Executive Officer, Beagle Productions

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Good afternoon, everybody. I am Joy Smith, chair of the committee. I want to welcome our witnesses. We certainly have a very impressive panel today.

As you know, we're doing the technological innovation study.

The Chronic Disease Prevention Alliance of Canada is here. We're going to be hearing from Craig Larsen, the executive director, and the Honourable Mary Collins, chair. Welcome. I'm so glad you're here.

As an individual, we have Cameron Norman, principal, CENSE Research and Design, adjunct professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto. Welcome. It's very nice of you to come as an individual.

From Gateway Rural Health Research Institute we have Ken Milne, chair of rural medicine. Welcome. I understand you have a presentation, but it's not bilingual.

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Ken Milne Chair, Rural Medicine, Gateway Rural Health Research Institute

Yes.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

I'm sorry, but we can't present it.

3:30 p.m.

Chair, Rural Medicine, Gateway Rural Health Research Institute

Dr. Ken Milne

That's fine.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

I could ask the will of the committee, could I not? Is it the will of the committee to see this PowerPoint, even though it's not bilingual?

No. I just thought I'd ask. It was worth a try.

3:30 p.m.

Chair, Rural Medicine, Gateway Rural Health Research Institute

Dr. Ken Milne

I appreciate your asking. They're just pretty pictures.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

That's okay.

From Beagle Productions we have Dale Friesen, chief executive officer. Welcome.

We have a very impressive group of people.

We will begin with Mary Collins, please.

3:30 p.m.

Mary Collins Chair, Chronic Disease Prevention Alliance of Canada

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and members of the committee.

We're very pleased to be here from the Chronic Disease Prevention Alliance of Canada.

I'm Mary Collins. I'm the chair of the alliance, and Craig Larsen is the executive director. We're going to give a general view around technology and innovation for the prevention of chronic disease. I know that we're going to be hearing some really interesting, very specific ideas and applications, which we're looking forward to hearing as well.

Just to give you a little background, CDPAC is an alliance of nine national NGOs. We share a vision of an integrated and collaborative approach to promoting health and preventing chronic disease in Canada. Our key activities include knowledge mobilization and advocacy for evidence-informed policy. We work primarily at the federal level, although we also communicate with the Council of the Federation to help inform provincial and territorial action.

I know you've been working on this for quite a while and have had a lot of input from a whole variety of folks. I know that you are aware of the impacts of chronic disease, but given your studies, we want to reiterate a couple of facts to keep in mind.

As you know, three in five Canadians above the age of 20 are living with a chronic disease, and four in five have at least one risk factor. The costs of managing chronic disease in Canada currently account for 58% of all health care spending and are estimated at $68 billion annually. Indirect costs associated with the loss of income and productivity are estimated to be about double that, about $122 billion.

In Canada, 67% of deaths are caused by the four major chronic diseases—cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular and chronic respiratory diseases. Of course we know that diabetes is one of the fastest growing diseases, particularly among aboriginal populations, and that the current generation of Canadians are likely to live shorter lives than their parents, given the trajectory we're on.

The good news is that the four major risk factors for chronic disease—unhealthy diet, lack of physical activity, tobacco use, and inappropriate alcohol use—are in fact modifiable and much of chronic disease is thus preventable. We just have to get there.

How can technological innovations help us bend the curve of chronic diseases, which have grown so extensively over the last decade not only in Canada but in almost every developing and developed country in the world? This is a field that's just beginning to open up, and the opportunities are virtually endless. We've already witnessed the tremendous benefits of technology assisting those with chronic diseases to manage their diseases. Whether it's the modern monitoring devices for heart disease or those for tracking their conditions, some of these technologies are well down the road and are being used effectively, and there are certainly many other examples of success stories. But not as much work has been done around technological intervention for the prevention of chronic disease.

So how do we target the greatest areas of need while at the same time taking advantage of some easy wins to help advance technology for healthy living? With the plethora of information available through web sites, applications, or apps, as we all have come to know them, and social media, consumers are becoming much more health savvy than ever before and increasingly amenable to using technologies to support their healthy living. Electronic tools are critical.

We know that the provision of data and information alone will not necessarily mitigate the preventable risk factors of chronic disease. Often they need to be partnered with the mentorship and buddy system, but they play an important role in making it easier for people to access, interpret, and apply the confusing masses of information they may have at their fingertips.

I guess you already know that 48% of Canadians are using mobile smart phones, that 70% have downloaded applications, and that 34% of those relate to health, fitness, and wellness. So Canadians are already getting there.

Clinicians, of course, are certainly looking at technologies to provide them with quick, accurate, and efficient assessment tools. They don't always have the specialized time or the ability to make dietary assessments or offer practical strategies to support patient behaviour changes and thus are increasingly avid users of apps. Technology accelerates such clinical processes for practitioners and patients alike, and helps improve the accuracy and completeness of measurements.

There's been particular development around smoking cessation apps, and a lot of good practice and some good results. Usually they have to be associated with a physician or another health practitioner helping you, but at least you have the app that tracks what's happening with your smoking behaviour and that can help you avoid it. It's the same thing with alcohol use.

Nutrition apps, we think, hold a huge amount of potential. I mean, this is the thing that's really tough. I keep thinking that I'd like to be able to go into Second Cup and hold my BlackBerry up against the food choices, and it would tell me, “Mary, uh-uh, not that blueberry muffin; that's 350 calories and 16 grams of sodium. How about that nice salad over there?”

3:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Chair, Chronic Disease Prevention Alliance of Canada

Mary Collins

Obviously, you need all the backup to do that, but I think that's going to come. It's probably an application that we'll eventually see.

To date, knowledge about diet and nutrition, and cancer and chronic disease prevention has been very slow to move into the mainstream practice. In our daily lives, we're all having to navigate a very complex and overwhelming amount of information when we go to grocery stores or to restaurants. Quite often, people just give up on it. They don't have the time and they just don't have the energy. It's not user friendly. It's not easy to use at this point.

An interesting example, though, is one in San Francisco, in a project called iN Touch, which used what they now call medical mobile technology to work with teenage boys who were overweight and obese and from low-income families. With the app that had been developed, along with mentorship and buddy support—and this was academically reviewed—they were able to show a strong impact and a reduction in weights. We don't have that many scientific studies yet. This, we found, was a really interesting one. We think that's something that needs a lot more work. More evaluation is needed.

I'm not going to talk about health records because I think you've heard a lot about that, but I can't believe that after all these years we still don't have interoperable, up-to-date health records, even between Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health. It's absolutely mind-boggling.

What do we think the challenges are in moving ahead?

Certainly, there are privacy challenges, and we all know that. We have to find a way of dealing with that, of protecting people's privacy but not letting that be a barrier to being able to move ahead on these issues.

We also think that quality control and evidence-informed messaging is critical. There are challenges in being able to differentiate between scientifically valid information versus that's only pop, you might say, or commercially driven. The public and other users of online information need mechanisms, protocols, and protections to help with this. Certainly, the federal government, along with other partners, could play an important role.

I remember, as some of you may, when there was that whole program on the Internet in which Health Canada was involved in helping to validate information about health that you got on the Internet. It doesn't exist anymore, but we need something like that.

We basically have two asks in terms of what we would like to see in the development of mobile medical technology in the prevention of chronic disease.

First of all, we think there's an opportunity for the federal government to encourage innovation and excellence in this area with various government departments in programs through Trade and Industry, and with Health and the Public Health Agency, and also in partnering—P3 partnerships are really critical these days—with the private sector, NGOs, and academia in the development of technologies that really will work and that are scientifically validated, which we think is so important.

The FDA in the U.S. is already regulating some of the mobile medical technology. They're regulating the ones where there is an interface with the body, the monitoring ones. Like the FDA, we think it's really important that there be that kind of regulation.

However, we don't think it's likely or possible that you can regulate every app. That's just beyond the ken, but we think there should be some system of verification. Maybe it's something like the Heart and Stroke Foundation health check program. We can put our minds together and work together, again with partners in the NGO community, to develop a program of verification that can help consumers really differentiate between all the kinds of stuff out there as to what works and what doesn't work. Of course, behind that, we need to have more scientific validation of many of the technologies that are out there.

In my generation, some of us are still a little fearful of where technology may lead us. This has been a huge change in our lives, but the reality is that it's going to continue to progress.

If we can harness the best approaches that technology can offer and blend them with the time-tested mentoring and buddying—we still think that's absolutely critical, because people need to be able to talk to other people and have their reinforcement—then we may have some real winners that will help us reduce the burden.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Are you just about finished?

3:40 p.m.

Chair, Chronic Disease Prevention Alliance of Canada

Mary Collins

Yes. This is it.

We want future generations to keep healthy and avoid chronic disease.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

That's great. I gave you some extra time, Ms. Collins. I just wanted to make sure I didn't give too much, so that we could get everybody in. Thank you.

Now, as an individual, we'll go to Dr. Cameron Norman. He's part of CENSE Research.

We were wondering what CENSE stood for.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Cameron Norman Principal, CENSE Research + Design , Adjunct Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

It's one of those things that have evolved, but initially it was designed intentionally to be a little amorphic. It stands for Complexity E-health Network Systems and Evaluations.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Does the “C” stand for Canadian?

3:40 p.m.

Principal, CENSE Research + Design , Adjunct Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Cameron Norman

It stands for “Complexity”, actually.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

“Complexity”, and the “E”...?

3:40 p.m.

Principal, CENSE Research + Design , Adjunct Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Cameron Norman

“E” is for E-health, and “N” is for Networks, “S” for Systems, and “E” for Evaluation.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We have been trying to find that on the Internet. Thank you. I just thought I would ask as you're right here.

3:40 p.m.

Principal, CENSE Research + Design , Adjunct Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Cameron Norman

It's interesting that it started like that, but “cense” also, the definition of that spelling is to perfume and to make a little more palatable.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

We will begin now so that you will have your 10 minutes and I don't detract from your time.

3:45 p.m.

Principal, CENSE Research + Design , Adjunct Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Cameron Norman

Thank you.

It's my real pleasure to be invited as an individual to speak before you today on a topic that has been near and dear to my heart.

I was talking with Craig and Mary beforehand, and I realized that it's been about 20 years I've been doing this work, which, if you know much about the web, basically means I started doing this stuff when the World Wide Web was just starting.

In fact, my initial foray into this was as an undergraduate at the University of Regina. I was fascinated by how people were finding solutions to problems globally using Usenet groups, and then eventually this World Wide Web. At that point, truly, it was almost like “www” was the “wild, wild west” of everything.

Somewhat surprisingly, given that this is about technology and innovation, and innovation being as disruptive often as it is, I'm going to do something a little disruptive and actually use no technology—outside of something to make sure I'm on time. I'll do something that you might even say is more primitive: use simple stories.

I'll do that because ultimately that is what these technologies, these information technologies, which is what I'll be speaking about, are really good at. I'll share a few of the insights I've had as a student, a professor, a consultant, a teacher, a learner, and of course, a user of all of these technologies.

To give you a bit of background, I've been doing work as a researcher for many years. This initial project started out in the 1990s. I was fascinated by this new thing. I'd never billed myself as a techie beforehand, and I'd never really thought of myself as technology focused, but I was fascinated by that. It carried over to some graduate work I was doing at Wilfrid Laurier University. I became a special education assistant with the Waterloo Region District School Board in a program that was designed for kids with special needs, mostly behavioural problems and conditions.

As I was preparing for today, I actually thought of two stories that happened simultaneously, that really illustrate the potential power of information technology, and that maybe will provide some guidance. Even though they happened almost 20 years ago, I think the lessons learned then are still as relevant, if not more so, today.

The first story is about someone I'll call Jonathan, just to protect his name. We had a very small program of only 25 students. It was a multi-sectoral partnership. At the time, we had one computer connected to the Internet. It was a dial-up, and every student had at least an hour a week with it. If any student wanted to do additional time, they had to do it before school or after school.

Now, most kids don't like school, but this particular group of kids hated school more than most. The idea of their spending anything more than a minute longer there was just about unbelievable to them.

Nonetheless, Jonathan was so fascinated by the fact that he could connect to other teens, particularly ones who had the same kinds of experiences he had—which were not particularly pleasant and the reason he was there—that he came early and he stayed late to do this, so much so that we would come to school at 6:30 in the morning and he'd be on the steps waiting for us.

The interesting thing is that back then the web was not yet very graphical. Most of it was text. You had to read. This particular student was five grades lower than he should have been. He was in his early teens. What happened as a result of his fascination—or obsession, which we might have thought of as problematic today—with the Internet was that he spent every hour he could on the Internet at school, under supervision. Within about two to three months, he had raised his reading level by two grade points. Actually, within a year he was almost up to his developmental stage. It was fascinating. I was blown away by it.

At the same time, when he wasn't able to come to school early, his peers would fill the vacuum. They would get online and they'd be searching for all kinds of things, such as where to live. These were kids who often could not live at home, were chased out of their home, didn't feel safe, and were looking for new places, or places where they could crash for the night.

This was before Google. This was before Facebook. This was before Twitter. It was hard to find things. I don't know if you even remember back then, but it was hard to find stuff. These kids were finding stuff. I found that fascinating.

As a result of this, I started to do a lot of research on that particular area, looking at how it could benefit. One of the things it taught me was that there was a lot of power in the social connectability of the World Wide Web and its technologies.

Fast-forward 20 years and there's more computing power in these hand-held devices than in powered spaceships in the 1960s. It's fascinating. Yet, the same kind of things that made the Internet powerful 20 years ago still make it powerful today, for health reasons.

These young people are able to find things. It got me interested in how they find things, not just for young people, but the fact is that they are innovators. I’d like to think about some of the lessons that have extended from that original time to today, having spent six years as a full-time professor at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health, where I'm still a part-time professor and a consultant, and a student looking at innovation.

Really, it comes down to what I think are three fundamentals: a toolset, a skill set, and a mindset.

The toolsets keep evolving. We keep getting new devices, new technologies, high definition, social media, and those kinds of things. Those things are going to change quite rapidly.

The skills to be able to use those things change a little less so. I think the ability to use social media, generally speaking, you can use Facebook, Twitter and that sort of thing relatively easily, with the same set of skills.

Fundamentally, what I would like to impress upon the committee is the idea that mindsets may be the area we need to spend a little more time looking at, and what mindsets around the technology are, because the technologies themselves will change. Yet, I can look back 20 years and think that we're still wrestling with the same things. I don't know if we'll solve them, but they're things that we can benefit from.

One of the key things about mindsets I learned from these kids is that they weren't afraid to fail. That's one of the things we do in the health system too much. We are very risk averse to the detriment of the health system. To follow on from the previous testimony, there is an inability to want to try new things. I'm not talking about risking people's lives in the ER. I'm talking about very small things, making subtle decisions about how, as an organization, we treat technology.

These kids were trying absolutely everything, and a lot of it was failing, and yet they were able to proceed. One of the things we do in the health system is that we're not willing to, and I don't like the term “fail”, but hypothetically fail a little bit, and continue to work through that.

The other thing they were really interested in was networks. They knew they didn't have all the answers, but they didn't have to. They knew places where they could go to get the answers. They knew people who even knew other people who could get the answers. I think the idea of network thinking is part of a mindset that makes a lot a sense for what we need to be doing.

The other thing is they had organizational support. We wouldn't have thought about it quite like that, but the fact is that the school was supportive of their spending time online. We might not have done that today, but they were under supervision. They had a chance to go online and they had the support to do that, but we made sure that they weren't accessing inappropriate content. One of the things we do in the health system, whether it's public health or health care, is we often expect people to just do it on their own without organizational support. I train health professionals in the use of social media and other technologies, and they consistently say that they don't have the support of their organizations, whether they're doing policy work, research, or other things.

Something else that made these young people so effective at finding solutions was that they were curious. I do think the idea is not knowing what they're going to find but being excited about wanting to find new things. We need to be mindful of how we engender curiosity in our organizations and as a health system, to know that it's not something we need to fear, that it's something we can have a lot of discovery about. We very often think that we're going to find the right answer.

Part of this comes back to an overall climate we have now in Canada. We need to think about what that curiosity means in terms of our science policy and technology, making sure that we keep pace with that.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you so much, Dr. Norman.

We'll go to the Gateway Rural Health Research Institute, with Dr. Ken Milne and Dr. Feng Chang.

Who is making that presentation?

Dr. Chang, would you begin.

3:50 p.m.

Dr. Feng Chang Chair, Rural Pharmacy, Gateway Rural Health Research Institute

We will both be speaking. I will start this off, and then I will pass it on to my colleague, Dr. Milne.

Thank you for this opportunity.

My name is Feng Chang. I'm an assistant professor with the School of Pharmacy at the University of Waterloo, as well as the chair of rural pharmacy with the Gateway Rural Health Research Institute.

I will start by talking briefly about what Gateway is all about and why we're here. I will give two quick examples of the types of research we have been involved in that demonstrate a link to technological applications. Then I will pass it on to Dr. Milne, and he will wrap it up.

Gateway Rural Health Research Institute is the first community-driven centre for rural health research based in Canada. It was established in 2008 in a farming community in southern Ontario, in Huron County.

Gateway's mission is to improve the health and quality of life of rural residents through research, education, and communication. In the last few years we have established collaborations with a number of academic institutions, working with the University of Waterloo, Western University, and Georgian College, specifically to bring some of their education programs to the rural communities via distance learning. We also have a diverse research team with seven research chairs in areas ranging from seniors wellness to mental health to healthy sustainable communities.

We are interested in chronic disease prevention and management because, as Mary mentioned earlier, the burden is significant, but the burden is disproportionately higher in rural communities. Depending on the definition you use, 19% to 30% of Canadians live in a rural area. Past studies have already shown that life expectancies and disability-free life expectancies are shorter in rural communities. There is also a higher incidence of chronic illnesses when it comes to smoking, heavy drinking, and obesity. As well, even in our very own area in Huron County, there are higher incidences of hypertension, obesity, and chronic lung diseases. These are as compared with the Canadian average.

We see technology as a method of support to implement better measures for prevention as well as management.

I'm also a practising pharmacist with a specialty in geriatrics or working with older people. I'll give two quick examples of the types of research that I've been involved in with Gateway as well as with the School of Pharmacy.

When we talk about apps, and there are so many of them, a lot of them are targeted toward seniors or older patients. For example, medication adherence is a huge problem. There are a lot of reminders or calendar systems out there on the market that promote having users more independently track their medications, to take them at the appropriate times, etc.

We did a project at the School of Pharmacy working with some seniors and using these senior-directed health apps. It was interesting, because there were things that just weren't taken into consideration when it came to development. For example, the volume might have been too low and people weren't able to decipher what the app was saying. Also, there could be a button that the user would touch that would bring the user to the next window. This was considered self-explanatory to the developers or to users who are more familiar with Word or laptops or desktops, but it wasn't to all the users from an older patient perspective. There are certainly some gaps that we can aim to fill in that area.

Another example was using point-of-care technology applications, especially when it comes to diagnostics. Geographical areas in rural communities are quite expansive and we have a shortage of specialists or even of community primary physician support. I'll use INR testing as an example.

Patients who are on warfarin, which is a lifelong anticoagulant used to prevent heart attacks and strokes, have to receive this on a weekly to monthly basis for as long as they are on this medication. They need to go to a physician for a lab rec, which they take to the lab and get the test done. They go home and the lab takes a day or so to get the results back to the physician. They either go back to the physician or get a phone call, and then they go to a pharmacy to get their medication.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

I'm sorry, you're halfway, so if you're sharing your time, you have to make a decision now.