Evidence of meeting #103 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Okay, so there is testing there.
There was a comment made—I can't really remember who made it—about the CFIA and there being very little enforcement action on alcoholic energy drinks. Whoever made that comment, can you elaborate a little bit more? I was interested in that.
C.J. Helie
That was in our presentation. There have been a number of products that have been presented to the public as alcoholic energy drinks but that are not really alcoholic energy drinks. So a product like Octane 7, Mojo, would have label statements on it that said it was a source of energy. We would go to CFIA, and they would say that is not possible, that an alcoholic beverage cannot be a source of energy. CFIA's priority has always been health and safety, not misleading consumer information. We tried to tell them this was also a health and safety issue, but it was not a priority of enforcement.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada
This blurs the lines and it leads ordinary people who aren't doing in-depth research to believe that these products exist and that they're okay. The Government of Canada has been very clear on this for a very long time, and all the liquor boards say you can't mix caffeine and alcohol. You cannot do it. It's not legal in this country, and yet these products convey the impression that this is exactly what's happening, and I think consumers get confused.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Yes, it looks like there was a failure of enforcement of a whole bunch of different regulations at multiple levels here.
Those were my questions. Thank you, Chair.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for their presentations.
My first question is for Dr. Laliberté.
I liked the six points that you summarized. They were very clear and direct.
We can take all kinds of measures to reduce the size of cans, sugar level, and alcohol level, but would it not be easier to ban the sale of these sweet, alcoholic beverages all together?
Emergency Physician and Toxicologist, McGill University Health Centre, As an Individual
Mr. Boulerice, I would probably not be too sad if these products disappeared from the market tomorrow. That said, alcohol is part of our world and part of our life. We have to remember that. Clearly, we need to find the right balance. Opting for a quantity of alcohol that is equivalent to one drink would definitely simplify matters. That would be like setting the meter at the same level for everyone, whether we are talking about beer or these beverages.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
We want to stop young people from getting these kinds of alcoholic drinks, even if they are illegal or prohibited. This brings up the whole issue of price and availability. We talked about that earlier.
What do you think about changing the price of these products that are sold in corner stores and grocery stores?
That has been suggested.
Emergency Physician and Toxicologist, McGill University Health Centre, As an Individual
Ms. Paradis gave an excellent presentation. I am not an expert on pricing, but it seems clear to me that if you can buy the equivalent of four drinks for $3.99, that is a problem. There are various factors, but price is a very important one.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Mr. Harford, the Health Canada presentation we heard clearly implied that that department was going to make changes to the regulations regarding the size of these products. The purpose is indeed to reduce the volume, the quantity and possibly alcohol content in these drinks. As you said earlier, that percentage can reach practically 12%, which is enormous.
Would the members of your association be favourable to the adoption of such measures on the size of the cans or the percentage of alcohol?
President, Beer Canada
Yes indeed. What we're suggesting in our remarks is that the bigger the can, or the bigger the serving, the lower the alcohol percentage, so that it's a maximum of 30 grams of alcohol in total.
A smaller can or a small bottle could have a higher percentage of alcohol. There are some Belgian-style beers that have second fermentation and can be 8% or 9% alcohol. They're sold in a 341-millilitre bottle and have been on the market for 25 years with no issues. We don't necessarily want to take away from those products, but we understand. As the size of the container gets bigger, the lower the amount of alcohol, so the total amount that is being consumed is the same.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much.
The question I have for you does not only concern the cans, but it is related to advertising. Everyone says that we have to raise awareness and protect young people, inform them and so on. However, someone pointed out that the only code governing advertising for alcoholic drinks was issued by the CRTC and goes back to 1996.
There is a fundamental issue: the CRTC has no authority over the Internet or social media. I can assure you that very few teenagers still use television in the way people did 20 or 30 years ago. However, they are present on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.
The sale of alcoholic beverages is encouraged through advertising, but there is practically no control over this since the tools we have at our disposal are governed by the CRTC and are completely obsolete.
What do you think of that situation?
NDP
C.J. Helie
I do. I want to jump in.
A number of witnesses earlier today said that the CRTC code is voluntary. It's voluntary in name only. There is no licensed broadcaster that will put any beverage or alcohol ad on television or radio without a review stamp by Ad Standards Canada, which applies the CRTC code. That's broadcast advertising.
Most provinces have adopted the CRTC code into their provincial regulations, and apply that to all advertisers within their provinces, including social media. On top of that, we have adopted a voluntary industry code that polices our own members and invites consumers to regulate us by lodging complaints—again, reviewed by an independent, third party expert.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
That's very interesting. Thank you.
Would someone else like to address the issue of advertising?
Dr. Laliberté, you have the floor.
Emergency Physician and Toxicologist, McGill University Health Centre, As an Individual
I'm really not an expert of advertising, and even less so on the Internet and social media.
That said, in the marvellous world of medical toxicology over the past 15 years, we have seen an exponential explosion of the substances that are offered to people. It's all gotten quite far removed from alcoholic drinks alone. I'm referring to all of the medications, including opioids and synthetic cannabinoids.
As far as I'm concerned, I think we have to make all of the necessary efforts to control this phenomenon as much as possible. Just between us, Mr. Boulerice, we can't kid ourselves, unfortunately. We're living in an era of globalization and that has an impact on a large number of things, for instance alcoholic drinks and illegal drugs. We should not give up, nevertheless. We have to shoulder our responsibilities, but we have to realize quite humbly that Canada's capacity to intervene as a sovereign country will remain relatively limited.
I'm sorry to be somewhat negative.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Westcott, in your testimony you mentioned icewine. It has an elevated sugar content, but not an elevated health risk. That brings us to the big question: how do we effectively differentiate in regulation between products such as that and this other product, the name of which we dare not speak?
Can you tell me what the alcohol and the sugar content of icewine is, and maybe compare that with the other product?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada
It's high, given the nature of the product itself. I don't have a B.C. example, but I'll use an Ontario icewine. The sugar content is 260 grams per litre.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada
That's because when the grapes are on the vine freezing, the water crystalizes out and leaves more sugar. That's why they're sweet. It's the same thing when we make liqueurs. If you use a traditional method, the fruit brings a lot of sweetness right into the liqueur. Those are naturally occurring; they are part of the process.
Let's be very honest. We're not having these discussions because of those kinds of products. It would be fair to say that in some cases the nature of those products does kind of mask the taste of alcohol. That's not a bad thing. It just brings a different dimension to that product.
Again, we're going back to a very small universe of products, and I concur with Luke that had there been even normal enforcement, we wouldn't be sitting here today. To a certain extent, this is a lack of enforcement of existing regulations, so here we are. Trust me, we developed our own code in the industry. We have a separate code through Ad Standards. We go way beyond what the CRTC, and pretty much everybody else, says because we don't want to be sitting here in front of you having these kinds of conversations. We work really hard at that.
I think the last time I was before the health committee was on a similar issue where people were making things. They weren't part of the industry really. I wouldn't even say that they were manufacturers. They were marketing companies, and we all got caught up in that.
So, there is a very big distinction.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
What rule can we specify to say that “this product is bad and this is...”?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada
We're struggling with that. I think Health Canada is struggling with that.
We're looking at the sugar content. We're looking at the alcohol quality. We're looking at the size of the container. All those things come together.
Are we there yet? I'm not sure. We're getting closer. I think that's generally where we're going to go.
President, Beer Canada
It's not a perfect approach, and I think Health Canada, with the tool box it has, is in a really difficult position. There has to be some expectation that this is going to be dealt with at the provincial level.
One thing we're suggesting is the high sweetness level plus being a non-standardized product. Icewine is standardized. Liqueurs are standardized. There are some that fall outside of what a standardized product is. Those would have to be looked at and possibly grandfathered, but for the most part, that model could help Health Canada set an alcohol restriction for the targeted products.
