Can I say something?
Evidence of meeting #11 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pharmacists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #11 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pharmacists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Can I say something?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON
My second question deals with the report “Pharmacare Costing in Canada”. In there, the statement was made that a national pharmacare program would result in a negative impact on the ability of pharmacists to serve patients. When I asked the author of the report what that was about, he explained that in other jurisdictions where the public systems don't pay pharmacists as well as the private systems, pharmacists hold their services back.
I have to ask you this question as the leader of your association. If we move to a national pharmacare program, does that really mean you'd be directing pharmacists across Canada to withhold their services, rather than negotiating with the government and coming to a fair and honest price payment for their services?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Of course not.
Again, I think we're mixing associations here. We represent the pharmacists who work typically on an hourly wage or on a salary basis in pharmacies. They're not negotiating with governments on their particular working conditions or compensation.
4:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Of course. Yes, we did.
4:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
That was the researcher's perspective.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON
The third question I have is in regard to your document comparing pharmacare options. It's the same kind of question my colleague Ms. Harder asked.
In terms of the $6.6 billion, you don't state it, but that's the cost comparison for the government. It's not the cost of the overall system. Other studies have shown that in fact the whole system would be cheaper if we were to move to a national pharmacare system.
When we converted from an employer-based health care sponsored system in the late 1960s and early 1970s, there was a sharing of costs between private sector firms that had been paying insurance and the government. Do you see that as a possible solution to cover this gap? Could we probably lower the cost that private companies are currently paying for drug plans and at the same time, carrying some of that support from them, manage to cover a public system in Canada?
4:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Absolutely. We were, again, just putting the facts on the table.
Mechanically, that's a transfer of costs of $6.6 billion. How the government manages to offset that, or partially offset it, is completely up to the managers.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON
There are solutions, then, to pharmacists being kept well paid and continuing to provide services for Canadians. There are solutions to how we're going to pay for these services.
Generally you would support, then, the statement that a closed formulary model does not result in poorer health care outcomes for Canadians.
4:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
It doesn't have to.
Again, we're not for or against a fully public-paid program. We wanted to put some facts on the table. Any national pharmacare program can work effectively as long as it has the patient's interest in mind, ultimately, and not just cost savings.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON
I just want to say that your documents come across as being very negatively directed toward a national pharmacare system. Whether you've intended it or not, it looks as though you are against it, which is difficult for your association and your membership, in my view.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Len Webber
Your time is up, Mr. Oliver.
We'll now move back to Rachael Harder, and from there we'll go to Mr. Whalen.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
Ms. White, you made comments before with regard to the efficiency with which services could be provided if turned over to the government rather than being kept within the private sphere. I'm wondering if you can tell me, perhaps, of two other instances you've seen of services being moved from private to public and becoming increasingly efficient and less costly. It would be helpful to have a case study or an example in mind.
4:50 p.m.
Board Member, Canadian Health Coalition
The thing that immediately comes to my mind is simply the price Canada is paying under this system we have, which is extraordinarily high, versus the price in those countries that have a national public drug plan, which is, in general, lower in cost and provides better service to the population.
I'm not sure if that answers your question.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Not quite.
I'm wondering if there are other places where the Canadian government has done similar things in other departments, where we've taken things from the private sphere and put them into the public sphere, and we've done it more cost effectively and with more administrative efficiency.
4:50 p.m.
Board Member, Canadian Health Coalition
How about doctors and hospitals? We did both of those. There was a time in Canada when neither doctors nor hospitals were covered in the public sphere, and people paid out of their pockets for what was, I think, generally accepted as inferior care, compared with having a pooling of risk so that everybody was involved as a community in providing care to everybody. Not everybody gets sick and not everybody needs to go to hospital, but everybody helps cover those people who need those services.
What I would say is we are looking for that same approach with regard to the third strand, which is, of course, pharmaceuticals.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Mr. Eisenschmid, I'm coming back to you.
Your organization has said that one model has really been discussed for Canada, and only one model, rather than considering multiple ones. Certainly at the committee all that we've heard has been largely to do with Pharmacare 2020. I haven't heard much expansion beyond that at this committee.
I'm hoping that today you could perhaps mention some other models that might be worth considering as well.
4:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Sure.
I think you're reading something that was probably written six months or so ago, when up to that point no other models had really been under serious consideration nationally. The ones we put forward in our paper would be the Quebec model, which was discussed earlier today, and the P.E.I. model, which entails basic generic coverage for patient populations in P.E.I. It is probably the lowest-cost entry point. Those would be two others that we would put on the table.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Okay. Thank you very much.
Perhaps I'll go to Ms. Ashley.
You made a comment earlier with regard to prescription drugs and people not filling their prescriptions on time. We have had conversations about that at this table, and it seems to be assumed that it's due to cost. We have yet to see a study on that and have actual facts and figures come to this table.
Would there be a study that you could reference that actually shows this? Are there facts and figures that you could provide to this committee?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Nurse Advisor, Policy, Advocacy and Strategy, Canadian Nurses Association
I would certainly be happy to forward that to you.
4:55 p.m.
Senior Nurse Advisor, Policy, Advocacy and Strategy, Canadian Nurses Association
I do have a couple of testimonials from nurse practitioners if you're interested.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
No. Actually, I would be interested in knowing the numbers.
Do you know what percentage of people don't fill their drug prescription purely because of cost?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Nurse Advisor, Policy, Advocacy and Strategy, Canadian Nurses Association
No. I would be glad to look that up for you.