Health Committee on Nov. 27th, 2018

[Frank Vermaeten, Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you for the invitation to appear here before this committee and respond to your questions about Bill C-316 , an act to amend the Canada Revenue Agency Act regarding organ donations.

I'm Frank Vermaeten. I'm the assistant commissioner of the assessment, benefit and service branch of the Canada Revenue Agency.

My branch is responsible for administering key services on behalf of the CRA in support of tax and revenue generation programs. I'm accompanied today by my colleagues Sheila Barnard and Randy Hewlett.

Sheila Barnard is the manager of the legislation section in the individual returns directorate in my branch. Sheila is responsible for coordinating the implementation of the legislative changes affecting T1 returns.

Randy Hewlett is the director general of the legislative policy directorate, whose mandate is to manage the legislative and regulatory process within the agency. Randy's team also works with the provinces and territories to implement and administer provincial and territorial tax legislation.

Bill C-316 would enact a provision that would authorize the CRA to enter into an agreement with a provincial or territorial government to collect any information required for establishing or maintaining an organ donor registry in the province or territory.

Specifically, the CRA would collect and share personal information for individuals who wish to receive information from their provincial or territorial government on becoming an organ donor. The individual authorization to share personal information for this purpose would be collected with the income tax return.

Mr. Chair, we would now be pleased to answer the committee's questions regarding the implementation of Bill C-316.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Perfect. Thanks very much.

Now we go to our second questioner, Mr. Aboultaif, for seven minutes. I know he has had personal experience with this. He's had private member's bills himself. He's had a very close family connection and has been a donor himself, if I'm not mistaken.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Edmonton Manning, CPC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to everybody for having me here today.

Congratulations to my colleague Mr. Webber. I know he was a provincial champion on organ donation registry before. I think this is one area where we can improve the life of Canadians, and we can save lives even by mentioning it, as Mr. Ayoub said earlier.

The question is on a technicality. Is ticking the box going to be mandatory? In other words, if you're filing your tax online and you ignore this box, will you be able to submit your form or not? Will you be able to continue to file or not? I think that will be a nice option if it can be there. Somebody has to stop and ask themselves the question. Even if you file on your own, it comes as a box saying you haven't finished, or for whoever is assisting you to file the return, it says there's a question. That will become mandatory because that will help to gather as much data as possible.

[Frank Vermaeten]

Generally speaking, when there is a question like this and there's a yes-or-no alternative, if a person fails to answer that it would be considered a no. Therefore, we would continue to process the tax return, whether or not the individual filled that out. It would be very difficult otherwise. You can imagine people who are filing by paper not responding. We'd be in a difficult position not to be able to process the tax return.

[Ziad Aboultaif]

Okay.

When talking to the provinces to be able to coordinate that with CRA and the individual provinces, how much of a timeline do you think you'll need to be able to get those agreements in place?

[Frank Vermaeten]

It's difficult to say. I will say that we do this on a regular basis. We have MOUs with provinces and territories, and with various departments within the province or territory. We have a very well-oiled machine for that. We do need to have an MOU, because we don't collect information unless there's a very specific purpose for collecting that information. That absolutely needs to be in place.

Then we need to be sure that all the privacy and confidentiality standards are met. For example, in the province or territory, they would have to have a proper physical space. They would have to have the IT systems and access to those systems to ensure that they comply with the privacy requirements for this. The people accessing this in the provinces and territories would have to have a criminal record check. Those things need to be in place.

This would not be a particularly complex negotiation. Our experience is that we're quite good at this. It's waiting for the provinces and territories to provide the necessary information. There wouldn't be a lot. If they're motivated, this could be done very quickly.

[Ziad Aboultaif]

Mr. Webber, the money that the government allocated is a very serious and good step forward for this bill, and good news. Do you know if the campaign to raise awareness of this is going to be in place, based on the funds available? Are you going to be part of that, trying to do that across the country and making sure everybody understands what is coming and how we're going to handle it, moving forward?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

That's a very good question. I first saw the dollar figure last Wednesday with the announcement in the interim budget. It was a pleasant surprise to see $4 million being allocated to this. I have no idea what it would cost to get that question on the form, and I would hope, absolutely, that there is some type of education or awareness campaign along with this as well, provided by the government or by the CRA. It would be a good question to ask the CRA, about this $4 million.

[Randy Hewlett, Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

The funding is basically for the CRA to be able to make systems changes, to enter into negotiations with provinces and to be able to arrive at memoranda of understanding. I'm not aware of any funding that has been allocated for an awareness campaign.

[Ziad Aboultaif]

Mr. Webber, the bill doesn't have a definition for organ donation registry. It is going to create a registry, because you're collecting a bunch of data on potential donors. Coming from this committee, do you think that a definition of organ donation registry in this fashion is important, just to strengthen the bill and give it extra clarity? The question is going to come up anyway. What does this bill mean? What does a registry mean? How do you define that?

Have you had that discussion at all? I think that would be important to strengthen the bill.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

The first time it came up was when I read the analyst's possible questions on this. It certainly didn't come up during our review of the organ donation system here, and we talked a little bit about the bill. With regard to a definition of a registry, to me it's a registry, an accumulation of data that is put into a file. If it needs to be defined in the bill, then so be it. That might have to be an amendment, but I don't see that as something that has to be done.

Again, I guess that's where maybe a lawyer might come in to say whether a definition of a registry is required here. A registry is a registry. I think most Canadians know what an organ donor registry is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you.

Now we move to Mr. Davies, for seven minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to express, on behalf of the New Democratic Party, our congratulations to Mr. Webber, not only for his initiative but also for his tenacity in seeing this through. It takes a lot of energy. I don't know if Canadians realize how much energy it takes to conceive of a bill and then work not only to get it drafted and thought through but also to get it to this stage. I congratulate you on that.

The devil is sometimes in the details, so I'm just going to focus a bit on the details of the legislation. It's really a simple bill. It's a powerful concept but a simple bill, made up by adding two new subsections, 63.1(1) and 63.1(2).

Proposed subsection 63.1(1) says, “The Agency [meaning the Canada Revenue Agency] may enter into an agreement with a provincial or territorial government to collect [using income tax returns] any information that the province or territory requires for the purpose of establishing or maintaining an organ donor registry in the province or territory.”

To either Mr. Webber or anybody from CRA, do we know what information they will require in order to maintain the registry?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

I will start by saying that, from what I understand from this area, every province has different requests, different items that they need to know. Every registry in every province is different in one way or another. To me, the basic questions that the CRA would have are just a consent to give a name and an address, phone number, perhaps an email address, so that the information can be transferred over to the provincial registries.

For anything more detailed than that, I think that's where the variability of each province comes in, where they might need more information to actually get that consent in a legal document. But with regard to the CRA, to me, it's just the name of the individual and contact information.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

If I understand, that information is gathered by the CRA, and then the second part of the bill would authorize the CRA to release that information to the province or territory, if the individual so authorizes. Is that correct?

[Sheila Barnard, Manager, Legislation Section, Stakeholder Relations Division (Individual Returns Directorate), Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

Yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay, so we just have information going to the province or territory, but at that point, I guess, it's up to the province or territory to contact the individual. Is that how you envision the system working?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

That's how I envision it, yes. Again, in my meetings with the CRA.... That's basically the way it would work. The CRA will develop those contacts with each province.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

Mr. Webber, is it possible to be even more direct than that? I think the basis of your whole idea and your bill here has been motivated by the desire to get more people to agree, and to make it easier. Could we not put on the tax return a clear box that says, “I hereby agree to be an organ donor”? The next box would be, “I thereby authorize CRA to transfer whatever information is necessary to make that happen in the province or territory in which I reside.” I don't really see that direct check-off. Is there a structural reason we can't have that in the tax return?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

I would love to see that, Don—a form that goes to every Canadian that actually offers a consent. Boom, you've now consented. There would certainly be more of a requirement for information and such, but from talking to the CRA, I think that it's not the job of the CRA to collect that unless, I guess, we told them to in legislation.

Of course, each province is different, as well, when it comes to registering their organ donors. I think there are some issues with jurisdictional areas here as well. Provinces, as you know, are quite possessive of what they're responsible for. That was one of the reasons why Ziad's bill for a national registry was not passed earlier. There was concern that it was impinging on provincial jurisdiction, so it wasn't passed.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Webber.

Maybe I can ask the CRA. Is that the reason? Is there a constitutional reason that we can't have a sentence on the tax return that says, “I would like to be an organ donor"—yes or no, check—and then that information is passed on to the provinces and territories, which do have jurisdiction for health, to then implement? Is there a constitutional problem with that structure?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I wouldn't say “constitutional”, but there are a number of problems with that. I'll just give you a few.

One is the different rules in provinces and territories. They have different rules on age and mental competency requirements. Some require health card information. Some, in fact, require an actual signature. When you have 90% of people filing electronically, you're not going to get an actual signature. That's one block, in terms of the complexity and the different rules.

Also, 60% of people go to tax preparers. I think it's a real challenge in terms of having that discussion with the tax preparer—this very private discussion on whether or not you want to donate organs, which organs and under what conditions. That would be very difficult in terms of privacy. I think a lot of people would tend to just put “no” because they don't want to have that discussion. They don't want to have that kind of relationship with a tax preparer.

I'd also say that it could potentially have some consequences. People are filing only once a year, so if they put “yes” but then change their mind later on, or if they put “no” or think they've put “no”.... That decision may be irreversible at some point.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to ask one last question. I'm running out of time.

I'm convinced. When can we get this done? I think we all want to get this done as soon as possible. If Parliament were to move swiftly, is it possible to have this on the tax return for the 2019 taxation year?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Yes, I think it's very possible that you could have it done for the 2019 taxation year, which would mean February 2020, when that process begins of people filing. If the legislation passes, and if we have the discussions with the provinces and territories and they're willing to do their part, we can certainly get it done.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Do we know how many provinces and territories already have provincial organ registration systems? Mr. Webber, do you know?