Health Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Sarah Blyth]

Yes, we do.

We have a person who tests the drugs that come in.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

If it's contaminated, do you discard it then? Is that the idea?

[Sarah Blyth]

No, not necessarily. They would just choose to use it. They might use a little bit at a time.

There's a lot of avoidance of overdoses just through their knowing how much is in there.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Would this test show that it had fentanyl in it or anything?

[Sarah Blyth]

Yes. Most of the drugs that are in the Downtown Eastside are fentanyl now.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Are they straight fentanyl or laced with fentanyl?

[Sarah Blyth]

They are fentanyl, laced with fentanyl or a combination.

Fentanyl is highly addictive, so if someone's taking.... Right now, what's popular with the kids is Xanax. It's super easy to get. They use it to pill press and they put fentanyl in it. All of a sudden, the kid's addicted to fentanyl and didn't even really know it. It's highly addictive, really awful to come off of and younger and younger people are....

When you're at that issue, you want to be helping these folks as soon as possible so that they're not using something that's highly—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

If you said, “Whatever you have in this little package, I advise you not to take it,” what percentage of people would choose not to take it?

[Sarah Blyth]

It's a very low percentage. It would likely be that they use a smaller amount.

If you said, “This is high in fentanyl”, they'd be monitored and they would use a smaller amount at a time. We would advise them.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I ask Ms. Jackson or Mr. Favel: Is an emergency room the appropriate...? I'm not saying it is or it isn't. I'm just asking if the emergency room.... You talked about a RAAM clinic. It seems to me that maybe a hospital emergency room could possibly not be the right place to take people who are in this condition.

Is that accurate to say? Am I wrong in saying this?

[Darlene Jackson]

I think it's accurate to say, but unfortunately there's no other access point for these patients who are wrestling with this drug. We have no other options.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Should there be?

[Darlene Jackson]

I believe there should be. I think the RAAM clinics are a really good start. They've been started with our government, but at this point, they're not able to look after someone in a meth-induced psychosis. Those clients have to go to an emergency department to receive treatment. Then, hopefully, if the RAAM clinic's open and they're looking for treatment, we can get them into a RAAM clinic.

I believe that there are better options in emergencies, but right now they're not available.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It seems to me that part of what we've discussed in the past two meetings is the apparent scarcity and lack of resources to do many things. I look at the legalization of cannabis and I'm just wondering. Are governments wrong not to take 100% of that money and reinvest it in trying to fix all the social ills that are caused, maybe not by marijuana but everything else?

Hundreds of millions of dollars will be going into the system. Does anybody have a thought on that? Is this something where advocacy groups and governments should be saying, “Let's plow this into this, and not plow it into some other pet project”?

[Sarah Blyth]

I agree with you.

I think that we should be putting the money that we get toward.... Well, I think we don't put enough money in general into this crisis. It hasn't been a priority. It needs to be a priority. Yes, it would be great if we could get some money for treatment and for getting people onto safe drugs, including cannabis.

Cannabis actually has been seen to be an option for pain relief for some people. There are a lot of people who know they have addiction issues with respect to opiates and they go to the hospital and they're looking for pain relief. Cannabis has been shown to help people who are dealing with pain and even trauma. This includes seniors and veterans.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Mr. Dowie, would you have any comments on that? Is that maybe what we should be doing?

[Vaughan Dowie]

Absolutely. We've advocated for an investment in treatment from the money from cannabis. One can make similar parallels with the money from alcohol, where government is also making money. One can also say the same for money from gambling.

The question to government is this: Should you be profiting from your take on these businesses or should you understand that there are consequences to this, and as a result, be investing in the full range of treatment approaches?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes. It's not too many years since I've been in high school, but obviously, by my haircut these days, it's been a few years. When I was in high school—I know Mr. Oliver and I think he grew up in Bruce County for a period of time—if you got a case of beer on the weekend, you thought you had the world by the tail.

Why do kids now think they need to take cocaine, crystal meth and fentanyl? What is it that has changed since that time? Is it availability or price?

[Dr. Victoria Creighton]

I would say it's a breakdown of the family. The kids are actually not operating from the mindset of a young adult—like you did as a high school person—but from, “what can I do to alleviate any pain and not feel?” They don't have a future orientation in mind when they're behaving. They're not thinking that tomorrow they have a test. They're thinking that they just want to escape this world.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Wow.

I want to hear more about this, but I have to go to Ms. Sidhu for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you all for being here.

I heard there's a big jump. In 2015 there's 18% and in 2016 there's 53%. It's mostly a jump in our youth.

As you said, why do these kids need to use this meth? How can we educate them? Do we need to educate them in our schools? What kind of program do we need to put in place? I just want to ask everyone.

[Dr. Victoria Creighton]

I can respond.

Education is definitely needed. It's also educating the families and empowering the parents to parent. Oftentimes, they actually don't feel empowered to set a limit. When I go out speaking to schools, parents will just thank me at the end, saying, “Wow, you gave me permission to say no to my kid.”

That containment and that structure actually helps kids mature and grow up. We live in a very permissive society. Kids don't have those limits, so they don't develop the internal structure to say no to drugs or other things. It's both empowering the families and helping the kids develop that internal structure. Schools can play a huge part in that as well.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

Darlene, you said you had programs of 21 days, 90 days or 14 months. How do you determine which person needs to do 21 days, 90 days or 14 months?

[Darlene Jackson]

I don't remember saying that, but I'll speak to that.

I do know that many of our treatment beds have a 21- or 28-day program, with huge relapse. For alcohol use, drug use or gambling there is huge relapse. The programs are not long enough to actually get the patient to the point where they are ready to make a change and are empowered to make that change and keep that change going when they get to their community.

I believe that a 21- or 28-day program is not long enough. The programs need to be long enough to ensure that those clients are empowered. Then there needs to be follow-up. There needs to be some sort of support in the community that continues to help them stay empowered in the community and not backslide.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

You also said the right time and right care is not available out there, like the transport services. What kinds of transport services do they need?