Evidence of meeting #134 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meth.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Can you comment a little on your collaboration with CBSA and customs at the border? We often think about the provincial police forces working with the RCMP, but do you have a direct working relationship with the CBSA? If so, can you describe it for us and the information-sharing that goes on there. For instance, when you make a bust on the street and you identify the source, do you then tell CBSA they missed stopping this one and then share that information with them?
How does that work?
D/Commr Rick Barnum
As I mentioned earlier, we deal closely with the CIROC committee, the Canadian Integrated Response to Organized Crime. It's co-chaired by the deputy commissioner of the RCMP and me. We have members from various enforcement communities across the country, including CBSA. At that committee, we would share major high-level cases and major findings formally. Informally, day in, day out, there are relationships that exist across the country. It's common that if we started a major investigation into a precursor chemical lab or transportation and importation group, we would have CBSA as part of that investigative process. They would sit on the investigative team or at least be part of the regular updates on a weekly basis at minimum, but it's back and forth pretty regularly.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
Deputy Barnum, you mentioned in your opening statements that you recommend that Health Canada increase its capacity to conduct timely drug analysis with these methamphetamine drugs on the street. Of course, 45 to 60 days to get back results is ridiculous. Is there a way for the police to be able to check it right on the street? I'm sure there is. Is there something that can possibly be done to get those analyses back within hours rather than two months?
D/Commr Rick Barnum
I'll start answering and then I'll turn it to Lee, because I know he's an expert in this area.
We have ion scanners that the OPP has bought. They're expensive. We have a certain number of those distributed around the country. They're not easy to use, but they will give our officers a breakdown of what's inside of the drug we've seized. However, they don't give us a specific analysis of what the problem is. It's hard for us to go and really...it would never stand up in court. I'll put it that way. It's hard for us to go to a hospital and say, “Get ready, because we're starting to see and hear in this small community that there are going to be a lot of people using this batch of whatever is coming to our community, so watch out.”
If somehow we can get that analysis from Health Canada, on an emergency type of basis and get it back within a day or two, we could save lives. It's not a huge investment, in my opinion, compared to the front-end work that needs to be done.
I'll let Lee explain a bit more about the ion scanner.
S/Sgt Lee Fulford
We acquired a Smiths Detection IONSCAN 600. It's the same technology that's used at the airport. It gives us a presumptive test within five seconds. The machine can detect trace amounts. As the deputy said, the issue is that we may not necessarily need to know what it is. We'll need to know how much is in that sample. The only people right now who can tell us that are Health Canada.
Conservative
Conservative
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Winnipeg Centre, Lib.
Thank you very much, everyone, for coming here today. I really appreciate it.
I still have a few questions.
Mr. MacPherson, you were talking about why people use drugs. I am just wondering if there is a lot of data you could direct us to at some point for the analysis of why people use drugs. Do you have any more information?
Executive Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition
There's some research out there. It's often not a question that the research looks into, but there's a fair amount of research that demonstrates the wide range of reasons people use drugs. I would certainly be happy to direct you to that.
Winnipeg Centre, Lib.
Thank you very much.
Second, I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about recreation and arts and sports. I had a town hall with a number of young people and other service providers who look at meth in Winnipeg Centre, and we were discussing the meth issue down there. It is quite serious. Recreation and arts and sports came up quite a bit as giving people something useful and creative and fulfilling to do with their time. Instead of sitting around on their front steps, talking to people and watching other people use meth, go play soccer.
I was just wondering if you have any research or any knowledge about something related to that.
Executive Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition
Well, there's certainly a growing body of research that shows that engaging people who use substances like methamphetamine in meaningful involvement in the arts, recreation, or community-building enterprises is helpful. People are really pushed away from society, pushed away from those activities, and it makes sense. I hope some people who use meth are included in those soccer games and recreational activities you're talking about.
Winnipeg Centre, Lib.
I have a number of further questions. I guess I can open it up to the group here. I was just wondering if we have any understanding about the additional costs related to the use of meth, for instance, in terms of policing, health care, or even treatment.
How much more does it cost to treat someone who's using meth compared to opioids or another type of drug? For instance, if the government had a million dollars that it could allocate towards something, how far would that go exactly in the treatment of meth users compared to users of other drugs? Does anyone have any information?
Okay, I guess we have—
Executive Director, Canadian Public Health Association
I can simply say that we don't have that information. It's not reported at the level of granularity that we need it to be. If you want to know how much meth costs our society, how much it costs our health care system, we can't answer that question because it doesn't get reported that way provincially, and then it doesn't get rolled out to give those meaningful types of reports.
What we know is that, over the entire population, only 0.2% use methamphetamine, so you can extrapolate some numbers of the overall drug costs to society. However, it's only going to be modelling; it's not going to be exact.
Winnipeg Centre, Lib.
Part of my issue, for instance, is with policing. In the city of Winnipeg, what we heard in testimony is that it takes a lot more time to deal with someone who's on meth. Where do you take them? In the hospitals, it takes a lot more personnel to deal with someone. All of that costs something.
The federal government came out with a little program related to the opioids and then decided to include meth. It was $4.2 million combined with the province, working with the provincial premier, Brian Pallister, to provide funding. However, compared to the funding going to Vancouver or other places that might be dealing with different types of drugs, the impact might be a lot less. If addiction treatment is three months for meth use compared with one month or 28 days for alcoholism or some other types of substance abuse, I suspect the costs are higher.
So, I'm just kind of surprised that there's not a lot of research related to that.
Executive Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition
People use a lot of substances. They are polysubstance users, so it's not always that simple to just to treat one drug at a time. You heard that in Vancouver, 40% to 50% of people using one of the overdose prevention sites use methamphetamine. They probably use other drugs as well, so it's really quite a complex question you're asking. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't look for the answers, but it's not just as simple as meth users per se.
S/Sgt Lee Fulford
I'll just add that Australia has classified the socio-economic cost of particular drugs per kilo. You may want to look into some of that research for our federal government.
Conservative
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
I will share my time again with Mr. Kmiec.
Sergeant Fulford, you talked about the one-pot method of production of methamphetamine and the precursors for building and making this stuff. Is there any work going on to co-operate with pharmacies and drug hardware stores on the sale of these precursors and monitoring that—seeing who's buying this stuff and in what quantities? Has that been looked at at all?
S/Sgt Lee Fulford
The precursor for methamphetamine production is ephedrine, which is found in a cold medication, Claritin, etc. It's still available in the aisles.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
Yes. How much do you need to make one pot? Do you need a lot of cold meds?
S/Sgt Lee Fulford
Essentially, the pills are crushed. You would need a few boxes of pills. You crush the pills. You add the other precursors: lithium, ether, sodium hydroxide and some others. They are mixed together, and it's left. It's a very, very volatile method of production, and it can result in explosions.
However, there is room for improvement and to refresh and re-educate the pharmaceutical industry on what to look for in suspicious transactions, but we're not seeing economical-based labs getting their ephedrine from these stores. It's with our small production that it's occurring.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
I can see its being difficult to monitor and to investigate, if you're selling a box of cold meds. It's difficult.
You have a question on that as well.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Thank you.
I was going to ask a question about the manufacture and distribution because, again, there's this friend of mine, Bernard, in this northern Alberta community, where they have this pint that's being used. We've heard a lot about reducing the stigma associated with drug use and about helping the drug users find ways to help themselves by offering them opportunities—as many as possible—to get off drugs. We've talked about offering a different route through a pretrial diversion option, but is there something else we could do?
Alberta introduced a law to ban pill presses, with $50,000 fines, and $125,000 fines for second offences plus jail time. I know that former MPP Michael Harris tried to do that in Ontario as well. There is precursor material, but for some of the tools used in the production, is there anything that could be done on that end to ban their import by those who should not be allowed to use them? In Alberta, pharmacists can import a pill press, but nobody else can.
Is there anything like that that could be done in addition? Or is it just too simple to make the stuff? Is it really just impossible to stop it? Should we really be focusing solely on reducing the harm on one end? Or is there something more that we could do on the manufacturing side to at least make it more difficult and more complicated?
