Evidence of meeting #134 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meth.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Turner  Board Member, Alberta Addicts Who Educate and Advocate Responsibly
Donald MacPherson  Executive Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition
Ian Culbert  Executive Director, Canadian Public Health Association
Commissioner Rick Barnum  Deputy Commissioner, Investigations and Organized Crime, Ontario Provincial Police
Sergeant Lee Fulford  Detective Staff Sergeant, Organized Crime Enforcement Bureau, Ontario Provincial Police
Robert-Falcon Ouellette  Winnipeg Centre, Lib.

4:45 p.m.

S/Sgt Lee Fulford

With the production of synthetic substances, they're using lab equipment that any pharmaceutical company in Canada utilizes. The RCMP has a chemical diversion program, a ChemWatch hotline. People can report suspicious transactions in lab equipment, such as when someone who they believe is suspicious comes in and purchases a large round-bottomed flask, a big thing that you would see in a chemistry class when you're in high school.

The focus is on that further collaboration with the RCMP and its chemical diversion program to work with our partners to proactively investigate these transactions within the province of Ontario.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

It's the focus. Okay.

You mentioned that this program is called ChemWatch and is run by the RCMP.

4:45 p.m.

S/Sgt Lee Fulford

It's the RCMP's chemical diversion program. They're responsible for information regarding importation of precursors. There is a 1-800 number, I believe. It's called ChemWatch. You can report suspicious transactions, and chemical companies can call regarding suspicious transactions of chemicals that are precursors.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Okay. I wondered about that more broadly for the committee. I know that my time is up, but how often does this 1-800 number get used? That would be an open question.

4:45 p.m.

S/Sgt Lee Fulford

You'd have to ask the RCMP.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

All right. We'll go to Mr. Ayoub for five minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you.

I'll be asking the questions in French. Feel free to answer in English.

The comprehensive approach to drug use and addiction seems to be more complex, because drug use cannot be treated in isolation from everything else. Many things are connected. We heard from Steve Barlow, the Calgary Chief of Police, as a witness. He told us that the reported crimes are not always related to drug possession, but also to the consequences of the actions of people who want to obtain or buy it. To do so, they break other laws and are arrested or caught in the act for crimes other than simple drug possession.

In your opinion, what is the solution? What can be done to improve the situation? Some courts can refer people to treatment if they need it, so that they do not start again and are able to get out of this vicious circle. The people you arrest may be arrested more than once. You probably know them. They are the consumers.

Then, there are the producers. So one approach is based on enforcement and another approach is based on prevention and treatment. The two approaches could be implemented at the same time, but probably not by the same organizations. What are your thoughts on this?

I see Mr. Barnum nodding.

4:50 p.m.

D/Commr Rick Barnum

Thank you.

Besides what Lee has already mentioned about the precursors and things of that nature, I'll take two parts of your question.

On the big part, the importation, I think it would be wrong for me not to mention the fact that, whether it's huge importation or minor importation or above street-level dealing, one of the tools we are absolutely handcuffed by in policing—and it's taking lives in our country—is the inability of police officers to legally gain access to information that individuals have on their cellphones.

What I mean by that, and as a prime example I could talk over and over about, is that when a trafficker of any type of illicit drugs causing someone else to have an overdose or an overdose fatality, and we come to do the investigation, if they have specific information inside their cellphone, we can't get it unless we can gain their password. In other words, the person is holding a cellphone that answers why somebody is lying there dead, and we can't get access to that.

It's the same thing when high-level traffickers come into our country, whether they're dealing Mexican meth by the kilo or multi-kilo or they're bringing in precursors, when we bring our investigations to a conclusion, we often find they're using high-end encrypted devices that only they have the passwords for. We can catch them in vehicles with millions of dollars worth of methamphetamine and other products, and we can't get the information that we need to prove our case successfully because it's locked up behind a cellphone that's right in their hand or right in our hand, and we'll take months and months to try to open that cellphone. Sometimes we get lucky, and other times we don't. As a result, we lose vital information.

To me it's absolutely crazy that when we're dealing with victims' families, and a parent, brother, sister, husband or wife want to know what happened and how it happened, we can't tell them.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

What do you expect the government to do to change that?

4:50 p.m.

D/Commr Rick Barnum

Update legislation to make a threshold where we can approach a judge or a justice of the peace and say, “Here's the evidence we have. As a result of that evidence, we need the password, and the individual has that password”.

If we pass that threshold on these major investigations or an overdose fatality, then we'd be able to gain—

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Do you have those conversations with your counterparts outside of Canada?

4:50 p.m.

D/Commr Rick Barnum

I talk with the FBI all the time about this. They're very much on the record about what they need in the United States, what we need in Canada and beyond.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Is there a solution?

4:50 p.m.

D/Commr Rick Barnum

Not yet.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I think my time is up.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Now we go to Mr. Davies for three minutes.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Mr. MacPherson, I just want to come back to a word you used. You used the word “conundrum”, and I want to explore that a little bit with you. You're quoted as saying:

Drugs that are currently illegal, we should make them legal. Then we can focus on problematic substance use and issues like dependency and addiction. The so-called war on drugs is this sort of masterful distraction that we will get it right someday in the future if we just try a little harder. That's not going to happen. If we were to just legalize these substances and put our resources to helping people who develop problems with them, we'd waste less money and have much better outcomes.

You're also quoted as saying:

The irony of our drug control strategies is that they don't control drugs. They actually create a free market for these substances and the free market is managed by organized criminal gangs with a global reach.

I very much agree with you in those quotes.

Recently, Dr. Theresa Tam, the chief medical officer of Canada, has vocalized what many stakeholders across the country are saying, which is that we have a poison, toxic street supply in this country, and it's killing people. I fail to see what the conundrum is.

I see a straight line to a logical answer, which is that we need to address it head-on by making sure that people who are using drugs aren't killed by toxic poison in the streets. That means we have to make sure that they have access to a safe, regulated supply of known quantity and known dosage, preferably I would say, through a highly regulated medical system.

Do you agree with that, or do you think we should continue to leave drug supply to organized crime on the streets?

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition

Donald MacPherson

No, the conundrum is that we refuse to do what is right under our very nose, like the last example we just talked about in the committee. We make a choice. By not allowing people access to a pharmaceutical stimulant like Adderall, Desoxyn, or these substances, we basically deliver vulnerable people to organized crime. You're listening to the extent to which police are trying to grapple with organized crime, when in fact we are allowing a huge market to continue to be available to organized criminals and unregulated dealers. You're beginning to see that with opioids. You're beginning to see hydromorphone being prescribed to people who are using heroin or fentanyl, not as a treatment program, but as a way of removing them from the illegal market.

The conundrum is, why don't we just do that? If we legalize and regulate drugs, we can put all of our energy in that system of treatment that is so elusive to us. We spend so much money running around chasing criminals and organized crime, but should really be focused on that small percentage of people who develop addictions to drugs, and allow people to access real pharmaceuticals.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you for clarifying that.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

That's very good.

Before we suspend to go in camera and talk about committee business, I want to thank all of our witnesses today. You've been tremendous in helping us understand what we can do about the state of the nation with regard to methamphetamines. Thank you for your testimony.

We'll suspend now to go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]