Health Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Good.

You mentioned the tobacco industry, and I think all governments in Canada can be proud that we've really taken that on and we've seen what education can do. As you said, the labelling, these horrible pictures, that's an example.

I was just curious. I remember years ago when these violent video games were coming out. My wife and I had the conversation about that. You mentioned in your testimony the connection sometimes between sex and violence, and how that can be a problem. Did we learn anything about those violent video games and that type of thing, or do you not quite want to go there?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Every image we see has impact on us. We know that, because the marketing world spends millions and millions of dollars getting the exact perfect image. Will it have impacts, if you want to look at the video games? I haven't had any contact with any video game developers or any of the academics who have said anything on this topic, so that would be something to talk to them about.

I know for sure that the correlation.... It's particularly when the violence and the sexual stimuli are combined that it becomes extremely impactful, so that's where most of these researchers have gone with it as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Your time is up.

Mr. Ayoub.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll give the hon. member time to put in the earpiece because my question will be in French.

Thank you for being here.

No one can object to the fact that we are concerned about the health of our children and the general public.

Mr. Viersen, in order to move our committee's discussion forward and for us to take our consideration further, I'd like to know what scientific evidence is supporting your motion.

Is there evidence in the scientific documents and studies that have been done that proves that this has a direct impact on public health?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I have a complete briefing package that I put out during the debate in the House. You're welcome to reference that and I'd be pleased to provide it to you.

The latest study, a 2016 study of over 4,500 teenagers on sexually explicit material and sexual coercion published in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence found that, for boys, perpetrating sexual coercion was an abuse significantly associated with the viewing of online pornography. That was the first study that provided us with a causational link.

Every other study up until 2016 had provided correlation.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Who conducted the study?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

This study was conducted by Stanley, Barter, and Wood. It's in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Can we say, at this stage, that the studies done are only a start and that they are in the early stages? The data from these studies do not span a long period of time. Further studies and new scientific evidence are needed to corroborate data from early studies. We can't rely on a single study. A larger study should be done to determine the effects of this content on public health.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I would say no. This has been studied for 30 years. This was a meta-analysis study, so it used the 30 years of study before it to come up with the causation aspect of it.

Until this point, for the last 30 years of studying this, we've only been able to show that people who engage in this behaviour also engaged in that behaviour. For the first time now we have a study, which came out in 2016, that says that people who engage in this behaviour are more likely to engage in that behaviour. It's a causation rather than a correlation.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

It's not clear to me. If it goes back 30 years, I would hope that these effects have already been discussed. I am open to another study because, in my opinion, the health effects have yet to be proven.

You drew a comparison to the tobacco industry. This comparison is quite strong and it really boggles the mind. However, in this case, the direct impact on health is not only physical, but psychological as well.

It's on this last aspect that the effects aren't clear. We need a better idea of what you are putting forward in your motion and what kind of studies need to be done. The difficulty is having other speakers and witnesses who can corroborate what is being advanced and determine the real effect. From my perspective, this is the difficulty in terms of studying this motion.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I would just add that I hope you get to hear from a number of the academic and health professionals that have been doing these kinds of studies. I think the evidence is clear on a lot of these things.

You talked about the different areas of health. Indeed, there are physical and also psychological health impacts of this. There are also the health impacts that result from some of the actions that are taken by individuals who consume this. There are significant impacts on health in Canadian society.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Time's up, Mr. Ayoub.

Tom, welcome back. I think you were at our first meeting, if I'm not mistaken.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you for having me back. You've been very generous with me whenever I've been here.

Arnold, thank you very much for being here. I want to congratulate you, first of all, on the cross-party support you received on the motion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you got a co-seconder from every single political party represented in the House.

As well, I want to congratulate you on being a new dad again.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Jillian, your third child, was born in January.

I want to take this in a slightly different direction. I sit on the foreign affairs committee. You mentioned that the pornography industry is a $97-billion international industry, and I want to quote from the International Justice Mission. They do a lot of work helping victims of cybersex trafficking. To quote them, “Cybersex trafficking has become a terrifying cottage industry with high profit margins.” They use the example of the Philippines. I want to get you to comment once I read out the stats on this.

First, there are thousands of cybersex trafficking case referrals a month, just from the U.S. alone, and 54% of the victims rescued in IJM cases are one to 12 years old. There are boys and girls being abused, forced to make explicit, violent, pornographic videos, who are as young as two years old. They also say here that in their estimation, pedophiles and predators pay $20 to $150 for these violent sex shows, which are then broadcast online. There's very much a demand side, and then there's the production side of it.

What role do you think Canada could potentially play with our international development aid dollars? You talk about the public health component, which is telling people about the dangers of what they're doing, or about how easy it is to obtain this material. How about on the production side, where people outside the country are being abused? As IJM says here, violent, degrading material is being produced for the benefit of Canadians who are purchasing it.

I'd like to get your comments on that, and your viewpoint on what more Canada could be doing.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

The production aspect of it is indeed troubling. I know that right here in Canada there is significant production as well. If you hear from doctors, you'll hear them say, with regard to the acts that are done on video, that they see the repercussions of those coming into the emergency rooms right here in Canada. Beyond our borders, it becomes a little more difficult to police. With the online violent content, it goes everywhere around the world, so being able to police it from here will be more difficult. I would say that we should take every avenue we have available to us in order to do so.

On demand is probably the leading edge of where this is going. You order it. It comes to you live. In the Philippines and Cambodia this is an ongoing issue. A number of the organizations that I work with, that have supported my motion, are human trafficking organizations. They say that the entire pornography industry is the one that's funding human trafficking.

I don't have a study saying there's causation there, but they all tell me that this is exactly what's happening.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Just on that, do you think it would be valuable, then, for the committee to look also at organizations like IJM, International Justice Mission, which does work overseas, and maybe bring in the Canadian component of what's happening overseas due to Canadian demand and viewing habits for this type of material?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

For sure. That would drive the length of your study significantly.

Ratanak International is another organization that does very similar things. A former police forensics officer is the executive director there, and he'd be glad to appear before you.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I have time for one more short question.

In the material you provided to members of Parliament when this motion was being considered before the House, you mentioned that the last major study was in 1985, by the Special Committee on Pornography and Prostitution, also called the Fraser committee report.

As you mentioned here, it was before the invention of the Internet, but is it just the Internet that's driving this? You talked about sometimes the cultural change and your hope for a public health campaign to change the culture. Can you expand on that?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

The Internet has driven the ease of access, but I would definitely like to see a cultural change so that regardless of where this stuff is available....

It's a market. It's an industry, right? We talked about the production and we talked about the beginning of it, but we also have to talk about the end user. Basically, if there's no market for this stuff, the money that flows down the system will disappear. We'll save lives in places like Cambodia just because of that, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Mr. Oliver.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much for bringing this to the committee.

I attended a luncheon that you hosted or co-hosted a month or two months ago. I remember that new research that spoke to the public health effect was being brought forward at that. With the list of witnesses that you have suggested we listen to, will that research be encompassed?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

For sure, yes. Cordelia Anderson was the lady who was at that event.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Cordelia Anderson wasn't on the first list that you suggested, but....

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I can get that for you.