Health Committee on Sept. 11th, 2017

[Philippe Lucas]

They would be. I think caps and oils would be legal. They would just not be consumed in the form of edibles. Caps, extracts, oils would be legal, but not with a strong concentration. We understand that those would be legal. They just wouldn't be mixed into a brownie, for example.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm not sure that's the case yet with Bill C-45, but we'll look at that.

To Mr. Tesarowski, first, is Saskatchewan going to be ready by July 1? Second, I think there was a suggestion from Mr. Ayoub, if I heard him correctly, that Saskatchewan's the only province that is expressing difficulty meeting that deadline. Are you aware of any other provinces that may struggle with the July 1, 2018 deadline?

[Dale Tesarowski]

Every province is struggling with the July 1 deadline. Some are publicly saying they're going to be ready. Everybody is saying we're going to try to be ready. That's certainly what we're doing in Saskatchewan. It's just that there's a very long list of things to do, and we want to do them right.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Are you going to be ready?

[Dale Tesarowski]

We hope to be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Ms. Sidhu.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Mr. Tesarowski, thank you for joining us today.

With this legalization, provinces and territories will have the ability to enact their own accompanying legislation, with some additional restrictions if desired.

Earlier this year, Saskatchewan implemented a new impaired driving law across the province. Many provinces have enacted similar strict laws against impaired driving, and this has resulted in the lowest rate of impaired drivers across Canada since 1984. What lesson can be applied from impaired driving legislation in order to maintain public safety once cannabis is legalized?

[Dale Tesarowski]

One of the things we've tried to do in Saskatchewan is to treat alcohol and drugs exactly the same way. For example, we have zero tolerance for drivers in the graduated licensing program. If you have any alcohol in your system, there's going to be a consequence. If you have any drug in your system, no matter what the drug, there's going to be a consequence. We're trying to follow what we know, and to apply it to this new situation as much as possible.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for the medical cannabis industry representative here today. Some people have voiced concerns that legalizing recreational cannabis will result in the reduction of available medical cannabis. Others have said that allowing more producers will be of benefit for medical users. What benefits for medical users do you see coming from this legislation?

[Philippe Lucas]

First—and we've heard some messaging from the federal government—we hope this will give an opportunity to reconsider the taxation of medical cannabis. Right now medical cannabis patients pay provincial tax as well as federal tax. We feel that it's inconsistent with the current use of medicines in Canada. That would be the first benefit.

I think the second benefit is going to be a de-stigmatization. We feel that the legalization of the recreational use of cannabis will actually allow the medical community to consider the medical use more fully and more comprehensively. The quicker we can get it into pharmacies, the more normalized the use of medical cannabis will seem. We actually think that these steps forward to legalize recreational adult use will help in the normalization or de-stigmatization of medical cannabis as well.

Also, we're seeing a lot of funding going into studying recreational use right now, which I think will be beneficial in terms of looking at long-term panels of use for medical cannabis as well. We heard from Dr. Ware today about some of the research he's hoping to do.

I'm involved in a number of research projects, clinical trials on PTSD, and examinations on cannabis as a substitution for opioids. I think that research will help us better understand, once again, the potential harms associated with cannabis, but also the potential benefits of legalizing adult recreational use.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

Following the task force's recommendation, the government will maintain the medical cannabis regime for people who have authorization from a medical professional. The task force also recommended that this be reviewed in five years from the implementation of the new law, which the government intends to do. How will medical patients benefit by maintaining separate access for their use?

[Philippe Lucas]

How will they benefit? There are certain types and preparations of cannabis, and we've heard from our friend, Mr. Jones, about the benefits of high-CBD cannabis strains. CBD is not impairing; it's not something we would typically expect recreational users to be seeking out. If you've heard about the medical use of cannabis in the treatment of pediatric epilepsy, those are all high-CBD preparations and, in fact, Tilray—my employer—is involved in a clinical trial at SickKids, looking at high-CBD extract products as a treatment for pediatric epilepsy. If we don't maintain a strong and robust medical cannabis program, those products will likely disappear from the recreational program, because they're simply not impairing; they won't get you high, so there will not be a lot of motivation for their production. Protecting products like that, as well as the use of capsules and orally ingested products in order to discourage the smoking of cannabis, I think, is going to be a very important part of what we can expect in the medical system.

You asked a very important question: will patients still be able to access medical cannabis when recreational cannabis comes around? There are certainly some companies that are clearly hedging their bets more on recreational cannabis and that are already advertising or marketing themselves primarily as recreational cannabis companies. But there are those of us who are determined to focus on the medical cannabis patient, putting money and research into medical cannabis. We'll continue to try to meet the needs of patients across Canada as best we can through legalization and into the future.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Rivet, you said Canadians needed more guidance from legal sources. What kind of guidance do Canadians need to be given in regard to product form and production, so that they can differentiate between black market, legal and illegal products?

[Colette Rivet]

There needs to be knowledge about the product itself. Currently, the ones that have the most experience and expertise are the licensed producers from Health Canada. They are also working very hard at trying to find different product forms to encourage people not to smoke cannabis, as well as providing them with information they need to know.

For instance, if you're vaporizing, you will feel the onset much more quickly, but it won't last as long. However, if you're using an oil, it will take a long time, so don't go within two hours and keep taking oil, because then you're going to have quite a bit of product in your system. All of these things have to be explained. Also, every individual reacts differently to cannabis, so again, all of that has to be explained to make sure they have a good experience and do not go back to the black market. Black market cannabis could very well be—and usually is—contaminated, and it's very dangerous for people to be using that.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Could you please expand on the quality assurance measures the industry has in place to protect Canadians?

[Sébastien St. Louis]

This is not an industry that has been without faux pas. The licensed producers have had quality issues stemming from contamination around pesticides. What's more important to focus on is that we've been able to issue next-day recalls across the country. We've been able to protect consumers; we've been able to communicate with consumers and fix the process gaps that led to the contamination events.

As we keep moving forward, what we've seen in the industry is a system that works or is beginning to work; of course, none of the people involved—the stakeholders, the licensed producers—want to see pesticide or contamination events. We don't want to have quality issues. However, as we grow up in a fast-changing industry, these are things that have happened because of poor processes, and we have proof now that this system works. This is something we need to roll out in the future, as Bill C-45 contemplates; we need to continue that good, robust quality control that we've implemented on the medical side.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Your time is up.

Mr. Lucas, you have a comment?

[Philippe Lucas]

I just want to add to that: to be very specific, we test for biological impurities as well: yeasts, moulds, and heavy metal concentrations. Pesticide testing is also mandatory. I can say with tremendous confidence that the international community right now looks to Canada as the safest, most consistent supply of research and medical-grade cannabis anywhere in the world. We're currently providing cannabis through the special access program for pediatric patients in Australia and for clinical trials in Australia on cancer-induced nausea and vomiting. We're distributing cannabis extract capsules in Croatia. A number of companies in Canada are exporting to Germany right now, within their strict and very medicalized system.

We are truly an example for the world in terms of the highest possible quality product, and a number of our members, not just of CMCC but also of the Cannabis Canada Association, are now GMP certified, which stands for good manufacturing practices. That's the same high level of quality being used to manufacture pharmaceuticals all around the world. It's an international standard that supersedes the GPP regulations that we're governed by here in Canada, so I have great confidence in the safety, security, and quality of that supply.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much.

That completes our seven-minute round. Now we'll go to a five-minute round starting with Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here. At the end of the day, we really want to focus on the health and safety of Canadians and, for me particularly, our kids. I don't think there's a lot of argument out there about medical marijuana and adult responsibility. I look back at the Prime Minister's rationale for doing this and I asked witnesses today, and it keeps coming out, he keeps repeating that the status quo is not working.

I really want to thank witnesses this afternoon. I think it was you, Mr. Lucas, who quoted some well available statistics that show it's trending down and, depending on which ones you want to quote, as high as 50% of boys in 2002, I believe, down to 22% today. The Prime Minister's rationale is saying the status quo doesn't work. I find it quite interesting that Ms. McLellan, who's a former Liberal cabinet minister, was almost giddy here today saying we got a letter from Colorado saying it hasn't gone up. Well, guess what? Legalization in Colorado hasn't shown a decrease in the use of cannabis by kids, so I think this is really important that we dig into this a little more and also dig into the provincial jurisdiction.

I found it a little rich that the federal Liberals were criticizing the provinces on this, because there's so much science that still isn't known. So much of the heavy lifting is with the provinces and territories, so I want to take this opportunity to thank Saskatchewan for actually showing up here today. We've invited other provinces and territories and I think you're the only one that's shown up. I know my own province of Ontario just passed a little preliminary thing. They don't even want to show up here and answer some questions on it.

With you taking all the heavy lifting, I was wondering if you can go over some of the concerns that you may have with controversial things like home cultivation, and legal age of possession as well. You mentioned in your opening the drug levels and the levels in blood and how controversial it is. Are we going to be seeing a lot of court challenges on these things as far as enforcement?

[Dale Tesarowski]

Absolutely.

If anything, impaired driving is a testament to how creative the criminal defence bar can be. There are going to be challenges coming out of the yingyang with respect to most of this and the better we can prepare for that, the better we'll be able to answer it.

One of my mantras when I deal with my federal colleagues is clear evidence of parliamentary intent. If we can establish clear reasons why Parliament is moving in a certain direction, let's put that on the record. Let's do that at committee. Let's do that in speeches in the House and in the Senate and in the Senate committees and let's be clear about what we're doing and why we're doing it. That will assist later on when we have to address charter challenges.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I think intent.... As I said, the Prime Minister has been clear that the rationale is that the status quo is not working, particularly for our kids, but the evidence suggests something opposite, and even the early results from Colorado show the exact opposite.

One of the things I hear in Oshawa is this whole thing about home cultivation. Can you please comment on, number one, how you are going to enforce this? How much is it going to cost? How is that going to make it so that kids have less access to marijuana?

[Dale Tesarowski]

In fact, that was one of the questions I was asking you people. I met with the chief of the Weyburn Police Service last week. He's the president of the Saskatchewan Association of Chiefs of Police and that's one of the association's fundamental concerns. How are we going to enforce this? As I said in my comments, especially if it's out of view or inside a residence, it's only going to be by happenstance that we come across an individual who's cultivating. There's no requirement that they be registered, for example. I don't think a province would be very interested in requiring registration.

What we can do is assist landlords and condo associations in dealing with the health risks that are associated with cultivation and things, but from an enforcement point of view, it's a very large concern. How much that will cost, I have no idea, but if you really can't pierce that veil, there's nothing you can do, so there's not much of a cost.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Have you had any conversations about this legislation...? The youth is age 12 to 18. In other words, a youth can have up to—

[Dale Tesarowski]

Or 17.