Evidence of meeting #64 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was medical.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jacqueline Bogden  Assistant Deputy Minister, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Kathy Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Safety and Countering Crime Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Commissioner Joanne Crampton  Federal Policing Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Diane Labelle  General Counsel, Health Canada Legal Services, Department of Justice
Eric Costen  Director General, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health
Anne McLellan  Senior Advisor, Bennett Jones LLP, As an Individual
Mark Ware  Associate Professor, Department of Family Medicine, McGill University, As an Individual
Michael Spratt  Criminal Lawyer, Abergel Goldstein and Partners, As an Individual
David Johnston  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association for Pharmacy Distribution Management
Shelita Dattani  Director, Practice Development and Knowledge Translation, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Philippe Lucas  Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council
Keith Jones  Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance
Dale Tesarowski  Executive Director, Corporate Initiatives, Performance and Planning, Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice
Sébastien St. Louis  Member of Board of Directors, Cannabis Canada Association
Colette Rivet  Executive Director, Cannabis Canada Association
Robert Rae  Director, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance
Laurent Marcoux  President, Canadian Medical Association
Trevor Bhupsingh  Director General, Law Enforcement and Border Strategies Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Martin Bruce  Organized Crime Section, Vancouver Police Department
Jeff Blackmer  Vice-President, Medical Professionalism, Canadian Medical Association
Jennifer Lutfallah  Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Programs, Canada Border Services Agency
Sergeant Bill Speam  Organized Crime Section, Vancouver Police Department

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Okay, thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Criminal Lawyer, Abergel Goldstein and Partners, As an Individual

Michael Spratt

Could I interject for a minute?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Yes.

12:25 p.m.

Criminal Lawyer, Abergel Goldstein and Partners, As an Individual

Michael Spratt

The criminal law power is a very blunt tool to deal with social problems. It's an even blunter tool to deal with gardening problems. When you look at the rationale that has been disclosed for the criminalization of that one extra centimetre—looking at fence height, not looking at yield or potency or problems with distribution—that could very well lead to some charter problems with respect to the rationality of that somewhat arbitrary benchmark.

12:30 p.m.

Senior Advisor, Bennett Jones LLP, As an Individual

Anne McLellan

We did in our report discuss some of those things you just mentioned in terms of why, and certainly in our discussion with experts from the United States.... Why? Because every state that's legalized that allows personal cultivation—Washington does not—has established a limit around home cultivation and has thought through the reasons why they have established that limit. We heard from people in the United States, and also here, in terms of what would be a reasonable home cultivation number in terms of a moderate user, product, and so on.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you. I understand.

I would like to move on a bit if I have time.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

You have no time, sorry.

Mr. Davies.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

I would like to talk about a national e-commerce platform.

Like Mr. McKinnon, I did a lot of vicarious research this summer and this is what I discovered, from what I can remember. I'm teasing.

The illicit market is ubiquitous. It's coast to coast. There are a variety of products, imported and domestic. There are distributors, dealers, everywhere, who are trusted. Their prices are acceptable to the marketplace. The marketplace is sophisticated.

I'm told there are at least 12 websites that are making illicit cannabis available. There are home-delivery mechanisms. The C.D. Howe Institute has stated that the licit market must be able to compete with the illicit market for this whole scheme to work, and that it isn't just about price; it's about convenience, about choice.

I'm told, though, that there is nothing in Bill C-45 about a national e-commerce delivery platform. One of the major medicinal cannabis producers in the country told me bluntly that in the recreational regime, if we don't have a permanent robust e-commerce platform, the bill is not going to work.

I noticed in the task force report, it says:

Consideration should also be given to ensuring that online retail sales have appropriate consumer safeguards.

To accommodate those who may not have access to storefronts (e.g., small communities, rural and remote locations, mobility-challenged individuals) a direct-to-consumer mail-order system for non-medical cannabis should be considered.

My sense is that in order for a producer in Ontario to be able to mail product to B.C., it would have to be federally regulated under at least three heads of federal competence. It's a scheduled product, interprovincial commerce, and it's the mail, yet Bill C-45 doesn't explicitly address that.

Ms. McLellan, I'm wondering whether you have any recommendations about where we might want to look to improve the bill in that area.

12:30 p.m.

Senior Advisor, Bennett Jones LLP, As an Individual

Anne McLellan

I think the points you've raised are important ones. I have always believed that the way you compete with the illegal market in this area, as in some others, is with quality, choice, and price. It's going to be interesting and it will take time. It's going to take more than a few months to develop a stable, normalized retail market in whatever form provinces choose to put that in play. The world in which we live is one where people are used to ordering online, buying online, and we've seen with medicinal that, in fact, that platform works.

I certainly take your point in terms of lack of direct input from pharmacists in many of those transactions, although everybody should have a doctor who has authorized the product.

I think e-commerce going forward will be important, which is why you saw Ontario specifically including an e-commerce platform in its proposal on Friday as it related to the province and ordering from its retail and wholesale distributors. I think it will be interesting, as this market evolves, to see whether or not.... Some form of national e-commerce platform will be an important complement to that which is presently being recommended in the legislation.

I think you need to remember it will take time. We will learn what this marketplace needs, both in terms of safety and health but also trying to get the black market or illegal market out of this space. We're not naive. We're not suggesting that you're ever going to reach nirvana in terms that there won't be any illegal sales. We still have illegal sales of tobacco, and a bit of illegal sales of alcohol although very little in terms of consumption.

I think what the task force would say is that e-commerce will be an important part of this market going forward. How that happens and when it happens probably requires more conversation between the Government of Canada and the provinces and territories.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

That's a great way to finish up. I want to say on behalf of the committee, thanks very much for all your contributions to help us understand the different permutations and combinations that we're going to run into. This is the very beginning of this study, but you've certainly provided us with a lot of information. I want to thank you very much for this and with that we're going to suspend the meeting until 1:45. At 1:45, we will reconvene back here for two more sessions.

The meeting is suspended.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

All right, we'll reconvene our 64th meeting of the health committee.

We welcome a new panel of witnesses. We have with us today, from the Canadian Medical Cannabis Council, Philippe Lucas, executive director; from the Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance, Keith Jones, chair, and Robert Rae, director. We were wondering if it was Bob Rae, but it's not: it's Robert Rae. From the Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice we have Dale Tesarowski, executive director of corporate initiatives, performance, and planning. From the Cannabis Canada Association we have Sébastien St. Louis, member of the board of directors, and Colette Rivet, executive director.

I believe everyone has 10 minutes to start. We'll start with Mr. Lucas. I understand that you have a presentation you're going to forward to us later.

1:45 p.m.

Philippe Lucas Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council

I will. Thank you very much. I'll be speaking to it today. The notes will come to you shortly thereafter.

I'm here representing the Canadian Medical Cannabis Council today. I also want to share that I am a research affiliate with the Centre for Addictions Research of British Columbia, and vice-president of patient research and access at Tilray, one of the licensed producers here in Canada, located in Nanaimo, B.C. I've been working personally on medical cannabis for about 22 years now, so this is an area that's somewhat familiar to me. It's a pleasure to be here today, to be able to share some of our knowledge with you, as well as the work and research that we're doing.

I want to tell you a little bit about the Canadian Medical Cannabis Council. We're an industry association representing seven licensed producers and serving approximately about 40,000 patients from that group of producers. One distinguishing characteristic of the Canadian Medical Cannabis Council is putting a patient-centred lens on our policies and practices. We have a patient advisory committee made up of national organizations that include the Arthritis Society of Canada, the Canadian AIDS Society, Canadian Cancer Survivor Network, the GI Society of Canada, and a number of other organizations that help advise us when it comes to the policies that we put forward and our lobbying positions.

Some of the CMCC's priorities include lowering the cost of medical cannabis and improving access to patients. We've been urging the federal and provincial governments to maintain a clear separation between medical and recreational cannabis markets through differential taxation. We feel that medical cannabis should be treated like all other prescription drugs in Canada, and not be taxed. Certainly that's one thing I hope to be able to discuss as we take questions today, as to why medical cannabis should be zero-rated like other medications in Canada.

I'd also like to share that we're working with private insurers to help improve and increase the insurance coverage for medical cannabis patients as a precursor to getting provincial coverage for patients in Canada.

Today I'm going to share some results from a national patient survey that we conducted in January. It's the largest patient survey ever conducted in Canada, with 2,032 responses, and it will help illustrate some of the ways in which end-users are using medical cannabis in Canada, because there's a lot of overlap between the patient population and the recreational cannabis population.

The average age of this particular population is 40 years old. We see that it's actually middle-aged individuals, typically, who are seeking medical cannabis. A lot of the time they've had treatment failures and they're seeking alternatives to their current prescription drug use.

In terms of primary conditions, we find that mental health, which is a grouping of insomnia, mental health, and post-traumatic stress disorder, is actually the number one reason that patients are using medical cannabis. That covers 40% of all patients in Canada. That's closely followed by pain, which is a grouping of arthritis, chronic pain, and headache, which represents about 37.5%. What you see is that about 80% of patients in Canada are currently using cannabis as a treatment for pain or for mental health.

In terms of average use, we see that patients report using, on average, about 1.5 grams per day, and that 78% of patients use three grams or fewer per day. You're not seeing large patterns of use here. That data is consistent with research that's been done in Canada and the U.S., as well as in Europe over the last few years. It shows that most medical cannabis patients use between 0.5 and 1.5 grams per day.

In terms of primary method of use, I have good news to share. I've been doing this kind of research for the last 10 or 15 years. In this survey we find that the primary method of use reported is vaporization, at 31%. It actually beats out joints, pipes, and water bongs, which might have been more popular in the past. This is a really health-conscious shift that we're seeing from the medical cannabis population, but I also think it has policy implications as we move to regulate even the vaporization of products in Ontario and throughout Canada.

The key focus area of my research is cannabis substitution effect, which is the way that both patients and recreational users consciously and subconsciously use cannabis instead of other substances. I'll share a bit of data on that from this survey. In the survey—which as I said is by far the largest survey of Canadian cannabis users to date—69% of patients report substituting cannabis for prescription drugs, so they're using cannabis in order to reduce their dependence on prescription drugs. We also find ad hoc substitution for alcohol by 44%, substitution for tobacco by 31%, and substitution for illicit substances by 26% of the population that had previously used these substances.

I like to get a bit more granular with my data, so when patients say they substitute for prescription drugs, I ask them, “Well, can you name three prescription drugs you're substituting for, or up to three?”

It should be no surprise, knowing that patients are using cannabis for pain and mental health, that 35% of the substitution is for prescription opioids. That's closely followed by antidepressants at 21%, and then non-opioid pain medications at 10%. We also see very high rates of substitution for benzodiazepines, which are nearly as problematic in our society as opioids are in terms of dependence and public health impacts.

I wanted to get even more granular than that, so when patients cite that they substitute for opioids, I ask them, “Are you substituting at 25%, 50%, 75%, or are you giving up opioids altogether?” What we found is, of the 458 patients who cite substitution for 610 total opioids, understanding some patients use more than one type of opioid, a full 60% were given up altogether at 100%, and a further 18% were self-reported to be given up by 75% or more.

In terms of alcohol we get similar data. There were 513 respondents who substituted for alcohol, and 31% of those said they gave up alcohol altogether just as a kind of ad hoc effect of introducing medical cannabis into their course of care.

Now, I want to use that as the segue to look at some of the research that we've seen coming out of the U.S., both in terms of the medical cannabis states and the recreational cannabis states, because I think it can help inform what we can expect here in Canada. Over the past 20 years, over 20 states, as you know, have legalized access to medical cannabis. Right now, eight states have also legalized recreational adult use of cannabis. This has led to significant impacts on public health and safety. That includes a reduction in opioid overdose deaths. In fact, there's a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association that showed a 25% reduction in opioid overdose deaths in medical cannabis states compared to the neighbouring states. The longer the medical marijuana program was in place in the state, the greater the effect. We also see reductions in alcohol-related automobile fatalities, reductions in violent crimes and homicides, and reductions in suicides. This answers one of the questions we heard today.

We also see a decline in teen use of cannabis. In fact, there was a report that came out from a national survey just last week that reported that teen use of cannabis has now declined to a rate that hasn't been lower since 2002. We're seeing a significant decline in the teen use of cannabis.

We are seeing a slight increase in the adult use of cannabis, but interestingly enough, it's also accompanied by a subsequent decrease in the use of alcohol and associated harms. The researchers suggest that all of the harms that I've mentioned that are reducing right now, whether they be violent crime, homicide, suicides, or otherwise, are being reduced because of that substitution of cannabis for alcohol.

Other impacts include great impacts on taxation. Colorado now makes more money on the sale and taxation of cannabis than they do on alcohol. This in the home, of course. Also, on job creation, in 2015 Colorado created 18,000 jobs and generated $2.4 billion in economic activity through their cannabis policies.

That leads me to a discussion that I think is important for this committee to consider, which is the importance of brands when it comes to defeating the black market. We heard today previous speakers talk about the fact that right now, if you go online, you can order cannabis from 20-plus different sources online across Canada. None of those are legitimate sources of cannabis, and it will be incredibly important to allow Canadian consumers to differentiate between the illicit market and the new and emerging licit market. One of the ways they can do that is through the importance of brands. The rationale for responsible branding directed to adults includes eliminating the confusion between the illegal and legal markets, allowing professional companies to separate themselves from less scrupulous competitors, differentiating high-quality products from low-quality products, and providing an opportunity to educate consumers about responsible consumption.

Now, this has started an initiative that's taking place right now between a number of the licensed producers in Canada—in fact, 16 licensed producers representing 90% of the medical market right now—and both industry associations, the Cannabis Canada Association as well as the Canadian Medical Cannabis Council. This is an initiative we're doing with Advertising Standards Canada to develop a self-regulatory regime to allow responsible branding to adults when it comes to the recreational access to cannabis.

The principles of this initiative are that marketing by licensed producers will only promote brand preference and will not attempt to influence adult non-consumers.

Marketing by licensed producers will not be directed to persons under the age of 18, or whatever the limit is in the individual provinces, be it 19 or higher. All advertising messages will contain responsible use statements, which goes much further than what we see from the current alcohol industry. Licensed producers may voluntarily obtain pre-clearance of advertising campaigns to ensure that they meet these guidelines, and licensed producers will agree to adhere to provisions of the Canadian Code of Advertising Standards.

In conclusion, I would like to say that medical cannabis, as I've reported, is primarily being used in the treatment of chronic pain and mental health, that medical cannabis patients commonly self-report substitution for pharmaceutical opioids and alcohol, often leading to complete abstinence from the substances identified, and that branding can not only reduce the harms associated with the legalization and regulation of adult use of cannabis but can also maximize the potential public health and safety benefits.

Thank you very much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thank you for your information.

The report you are going to submit will be available when?

1:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council

Philippe Lucas

We're going to be submitting it by the end of the day, and I think we're going to make use of your translation services here to translate some of that.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Okay.

1:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council

Philippe Lucas

We're also going to be submitting a brand new publication from a study I've done called “Rationale for cannabis-based interventions in the opioid overdose crisis”—I'm happy to speak to that today if there are any questions regarding the use of cannabis and opioids—and another study I've done on substitution for opioids as well.

Thank you very much.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thank you very much.

Now, from the Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance, we are going to have Mr. Jones, who will be making a presentation for 10 minutes.

1:55 p.m.

Keith Jones Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. We very much appreciate the opportunity to appear before the standing committee.

My name is Keith Jones. I am on the board of directors of the Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance. In my day job I'm a general manager of Rowland Farms, which is a large farm in southern Alberta. We've been growing hemp since 1998 when the industrial hemp regulations were first put in place and it first became legal to cultivate hemp here in Canada.

With me is Robert Rae, who is also on the board of directors of Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance. As well, Robert is with Canada Hemp Foods, which is one of the hemp products distributors operating here in Canada. Robert's business involves exporting hemp products to a number of countries around the world.

Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance is a member-based organization that has 250 farmers as members, as well as processors, distributors, plant breeders, and researchers. We're a not-for-profit industry association that is volunteer-driven. We had the opportunity to reach out in Ottawa earlier this spring and were invited to review the cannabis legislation, Bill C-45, when it came out and to consider making a presentation to the committee if we felt there were some unintended consequences that might arise out of the legislation for the hemp industry.

We're here today because we are concerned that, as drafted, Bill C-45 jeopardizes 1,200 jobs in the Canadian hemp industry today, for two specific reasons.

One is that the current legislation does not differentiate between hemp, cannabis, and marijuana.

Related to that, the current legislation assigns responsibility for regulating the production, transportation, and distribution of all cannabis products to the provinces and the municipalities. That is going to create a tremendous burden on the current hemp industry. We operate our own farm in five municipalities, and to try to bring the regulators up to speed will probably curtail our business for a couple of years, based on that requirement right now.

Our proposal for the committee's consideration is, in order to prevent the unintended consequence of derailing the Canadian hemp industry, to exempt hemp in the legislation as item 5 under schedule 2 exemptions by exempting whole hemp plants from the legislation and, because that exemption would then be in place, to carve hemp out of the cannabis regulation within CDSA.

That, then, is our request. I'd like, Mr. Chair, to provide a bit more background in support of our request.

Hemp is very different from marijuana and from cannabis, in that hemp varieties originate from plant breeding that has been done to reduce the total THC in the hemp plant down to below 0.3%. You can't get high from smoking hemp, unless you were to smoke a telephone pole of it, which would be very difficult to do. It is from the plant cannabis sativa. Through the experience of the industrial hemp regulations over the last 19 years, Health Canada has approved a list of cultivars that are known to be hemp. They're confirmed to consistently have no more than 0.3% THC in them.

Health Canada has done a lot of work since the industrial hemp regulations have come forward and has those definitions readily at hand.

Hemp has been proven to be safe. In 19 years of cultivation, there have been no reported public safety risks associated with hemp cultivation and transportation, and there have been no recorded incidents of criminal activity associated with the hemp industry. At the time the hemp regulations were first put in place, there was a lot of learning to be done, but 19 years have given us a pretty good track record for proven safety.

Our farm produces hemp specifically for the food market. We grow a hemp plant to harvest the grain at the top of the plant. We're currently prohibited from harvesting the leaves or the buds of the hemp plant as part of the industrial hemp regulations. We can harvest the straw for fibre, but as yet a fibre industry hasn't developed in Canada.

In Canada, the Canadian industry is known as the global leader in the food use of hemp. Canada is known for having the biggest hemp industry supporting safe food use of hemp. In 2016, Canadian industry exported $145 million of hemp food products to other countries around the world. Today you can walk into most grocery stores in Canada and get a bag of hemp hearts. Again, de-hulled hemp and hemp hearts have a fantastic nutritional profile, known both for the high omega-3s in the oil profile, as well as a very appealing plant protein profile. Hemp is becoming a very popular food product.

The potential of the hemp industry is strong as well. We've grown to 100,000 acres of production. The Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance forecasts that with some modernization of regulation associated with hemp, we can grow the industry to over a billion dollar industry within the next seven years. We've barely started working on the feed market, the fibre market, and the natural health products market. There is great opportunity for the hemp industry going forward. In December, the federal cannabis task force recommended a relaxed regulatory regime for hemp in their report. We're appreciative of that recommendation.

In terms of our specific proposal, we're looking to see hemp exempted from Bill C-45, by including it in schedule 2 under exemptions. I'll provide the specific definition, which again draws on the Health Canada definition of hemp. We'd ask that hemp and hemp plant parts, including the whole hemp plant, be exempted under item 5, under schedule 2 exemptions, with hemp to be defined as “cannabis plants grown from certified seed of Health Canada's list of approved cultivars”. Those are the cultivars that are confirmed to regularly produce an absolute maximum 0.3% THC.

There's tremendous interest in CBD as another health constituent or health component. The Europeans are working extremely aggressively on this, and the FDA has an open comment period seeking input on CBD. When you breed THC out of hemp, you naturally get more CBD, which is why hemp is looked at as a very good source for CBD. The medical industry is looking at a number of uses for CBD and potential medical benefits arising from CBD. Whole plant use of hemp would enable the access of a number of people—Canadian patients and others around the world—to a very low-cost source for CBD itself. We think that's a real benefit that can come from the hemp industry as well.

Thank you very much for your attention. Robert and I will be very pleased to answer any questions that we can going forward.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thank you very much.

Now we go to the Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice, Mr. Tesarowski, for 10 minutes.

September 11th, 2017 / 2:05 p.m.

Dale Tesarowski Executive Director, Corporate Initiatives, Performance and Planning, Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice

Thank you very much.

Thanks for the opportunity to state a few words regarding Bill C-45 and the likely legalization of cannabis in Canada.

In case you're counting, we have about 292 days left before July 1, 2018. I actually found a website that has a counter on it.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

We have our own counter here.

2:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Corporate Initiatives, Performance and Planning, Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice

Dale Tesarowski

I apologize in advance for asking more questions than I'm answering today.

We've just engaged Saskatchewan residents in an online survey respecting the various provincial responsibilities. Once we get our results, we'll have a better idea about where to go from here. Over 20,000 people have completed surveys over the last three and a half days. It's a staggering number, which only points to the importance of what we're doing today.

The other point I'd like to make at this time is that legalizing cannabis—or really, legalizing certain people over a certain age to have, use, share, or grow certain amounts of cannabis—wasn't something on our provincial agenda. While we're not being dragged kicking and screaming to the dance, putting on our dancing shoes wasn't something we had planned on doing. There are a lot of responsibilities the federal government has put on our provincial plates, without giving us a lot of time to get things ready for implementation.

Among other things, a province is responsible for designing and licensing the distribution and retail sale in their jurisdictions as well as carrying out associated compliance, taxation, and enforcement activities. Provinces are also responsible for setting additional regulatory requirements to address issues of local concern such as setting a higher minimum age or a more restrictive possession or personal cultivation limit. Provinces and municipalities are responsible for establishing zoning rules for cannabis-based businesses, restricting where cannabis may be consumed, and amending provincial traffic safety laws to further address drugged driving. Saskatchewan already has laws in place in respect of licence suspension for drug impairment by new or experienced drivers and zero tolerance for drug use by new drivers.

We must engage with our people, businesses, communities, partners, and other stakeholders regarding these issues and implement processes and practices before July 1, 2018. We must be ready to implement or deal with minimum age of purchase; legislation, regulation, and statute changes; and regulating personal cannabis cultivation and potency rates. We will have to maintain quality control at the point of sale. We will need to ensure that what consumers are getting is what they're supposed to be getting and not something that might be harmful. We have to regulate distribution, retail sales, consumption, and possession, by which I mean where cannabis may be permitted, how it may be consumed, and how to price and tax it.

A taxation framework for cannabis must carefully consider the distribution model and methods of administration and enforcement to ensure that tax is appropriately applied and collected. In setting a rate of tax to be applied to cannabis, the government must consider a rate that is high enough to deter the use of cannabis from a social acceptability perspective but not so high that individuals choose to purchase it illegally to avoid payment of the tax. I call this the “sweet spot”.

In addition, we must address issues such as engagement, public education, and awareness strategies, occupational health and safety, workplace safety issues, and drug-impaired driving laws. We have to engage in regulation of cannabis sales and distribution to and from our first nations communities. We have to provide oversight for municipal authority respecting zoning, licensing, taxation, and fees. And we need to participate in inter-jurisdictional collaboration and analysis regarding age, retail models, taxation, and pricing. We want to have a landscape that's as familiar across the country as possible, so that we don't have different jurisdictions with widely different laws.

The real question is, can all this be done in time? We hope so, but there is much to accomplish in a very short time. Having 12 to 18 months post royal assent would have been an easily attainable time frame. Instead, that was reduced to 14 months after the introduction of the bill.

One of the problems we have in Saskatchewan is that we have set legislative sessions for the spring and the fall as well as a relatively strict timetable for introducing legislation. We give notice in January, get approval in the spring, and then introduce legislation in the fall session. Any bill is then debated and voted during the following spring session.

Cannabis legalization, as proposed, takes us so far away from this timetable that they are complete strangers. We must go outside our normal practice rules in order to meet the July 2018 deadline. Although we're doing our best to do so, there are no guarantees we'll be able to meet this federal deadline.

In addition, we've had to begin our processes without a federal bill in its final form. While we know today what Bill C-45 says, will it look like this by the time it gets to royal assent? There are innumerable examples of other bills where changes, sometimes significant ones, are made during the legislative approval process. Canadian jurisdictions, however, are being asked to proceed without a safety net in the expectation that there will be no major changes en route or that we'll have to be flexible enough to be able to respond to those changes once we embark on our own implementation strategies.

Saskatchewan has some concerns about cannabis legalization. To name a few: ticketable offences; enforcement and regulation generally; public education, awareness, prevention, and treatment; minimum age; labelling and packaging; workplace safety; and whether a phased-in or staged approach would work better.

With respect to ticketable offences, Saskatchewan agrees that a cannabis ticket, as set out in part 2, is a criminal matter. A conviction for such an offence is a criminal conviction, and that is where the issue lies. We appreciate the effort at increasing justice efficiencies by using a ticket, but does that format lead an individual to believe that their payment of the fine is the end of the matter? Is it like a traffic ticket? Do they appreciate that they would then have a criminal conviction that would affect their ability to cross a border, for example? The ticket itself must make this very clear. As provinces, we are engaging in discussions with our federal colleagues about these issues. Perhaps proposed sections 51(3), 52, or 53 should also include a provision that a conviction is a criminal one.

A second issue, and perhaps a more important one about ticketing, concerns proposed subsection 52(b) respecting its requirement that the judicial record kept by a province must be separate and apart from other judicial records. As the conviction is a criminal one, we don't see the need for this requirement. Should we have to create a separate record-keeping system for just these offences? Not only will Saskatchewan have to redesign our system at great cost, it will take considerable time to do so, and for what purpose in the end? An offender must still disclose the conviction if they cross a border. The conviction will still show up in a criminal record check.

With respect to enforcement and regulation, while laudable, cannabis legislation is being implemented without enough scientific foundation. I think we heard from Dr. Ware this morning in that respect. Is there a consistent blood/drug concentration that equates to an individual's impairment? Can all of the toxicology experts agree that at x nanogram percent of THC in blood, everyone is impaired? They can with alcohol. My discussions with the toxicologists suggest that they are aren't at .08 on that point. We are designing a criminal law system through the interactions of Bill C-45 and Bill C-46, yet the science hasn't quite caught up to us.

We're also concerned that drug-impaired driving will increase due to legalization, and significantly higher numbers of standard field sobriety testers, SSFT, or drug recognition evaluators, DRE, must be trained and in the field when legalization takes effect very soon from today. Not only does it take time to train officers, doing so comes at significant cost. While in Saskatchewan we're reducing these costs as much as possible, by doing the DRE two-week classroom training at home—we're doing that in Saskatchewan—we still have to send our officers to either Florida or Arizona for their third week of training, and that's expensive.

Moreover, roadside testing is still in its infancy. Recognized practice rules are not yet in place, nor are there any approved roadside devices. Again, our scientific friends and those in the Department of Justice are working very hard in that respect. We're 292 days away, and we don't have any instruments that are being approved at this time.

The costs of these devices are likely to be significant, and our law enforcement and municipal officials are very concerned that the combination of training needs, device procurement, and the ongoing per-test and analysis costs will be much greater than they can absorb.

Let's put this into perspective. Recent funding announcements from Public Safety Canada will help. They've offered $81 million over five years for provinces to share. But what does that mean? There's $81 million over 13 provinces and territories. That's $6.231 million each over five years, which is $1.246 million per year, per jurisdiction.

To put that into context, we estimate the cost for a device, an approved screening device, will be $3,500. We also know that it costs us about $3,500 to send an officer to Arizona or Florida for the week-long training. It costs $1,000 to train an officer for SSFT. I'm not an accountant, so forgive me, but if we take $1.246 million divided by $3,500, that comes to 356. So we can purchase 356 devices or train 356 officers or some combination of both with the money that's being offered. We'll have to absorb the rest.

On another point, in requiring blood analysis—and we see the scientific reason for having to do so—are our laboratories capable of handling such a large influx of samples? Are there enough labs? Are there enough lab techs to conduct testing in a timely manner? We're left with a situation where a sample may be taken one day and take weeks or months to be analyzed.

Last, our police authorities are concerned that enforcing a four-plant personal grow provision will be very difficult, especially if the cultivation is inside or away from view. There's virtually no way to regulate this. Our officers are very concerned about this.

With respect to public education, awareness, prevention, and treatment, we found that a position shared across ministries and agencies in Saskatchewan is that the primary focus for this topic has to be youth and young adults. Safe use and awareness of potential consequences caused by the drug must be addressed, and although this is an area of joint responsibility, the federal government must lead the way well before implementation.

We know that cannabis use by young people in our country is amongst the highest in the developed world, yet our youth appear to be ill-informed regarding its dangers. For example, the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse and Addiction in its recent report, “Canadian Youth Perceptions on Cannabis”, noted that youth consider cannabis less harmful than alcohol, yet cannabis use significantly increases the risk of injury or death in vehicular accidents. The health risks associated with cannabis are also little known. We can likely expect, however, that there will be increased demands for our health resources from addictions, mental health, and medical perspectives.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Mr. Tesarowski, it's important information but we've gone over the time limit. If you could wind up, we can get to some questions.

2:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Corporate Initiatives, Performance and Planning, Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice

Dale Tesarowski

Certainly.

The last point I want to make is this. Would a phased-in or staged approach work better? We're already starting on that road with respect to edibles. We're saying we're not doing edibles now. We'll consider doing it. We'll do it appropriately. So let's take a staged-in approach with respect to the balance of this. Let's get it right from the start. But start small. Let's get it right, and then let's move forward from there.

Thank you.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thanks very much.

From the Cannabis Canada Association, we have Mr. St. Louis.