Health Committee on Sept. 11th, 2017

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

—violate the principle of the bill to zero. I get it. Thank you.

Ms. Morency, you gave a very passionate and, I thought, cogent explanation of why this bill permits 12- to 18-year-olds to possess up to five grams, which is almost a quarter of an ounce of marijuana. You explained that it's because the bill recognizes the increased relative harm of exposing young Canadians to the criminal justice system for simple possession.

If that's the case, why is this government arresting those Canadians now? Wouldn't it make sense, then, to not be enforcing the law right now, and not subject those young Canadians to the stigma of the criminal justice system presently?

[Carole Morency]

We just reiterate what the ministers and the Prime Minister have said on this point, which is that the law remains the law unless and until Parliament enacts a change to that law, and to that end, law enforcement and the crown deal with cases as they are presented because that's the system we have.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thanks.

To the RCMP, has the government given any direction to the RCMP to perhaps exercise discretion against charging Canadians, particularly young Canadians, until Bill C-45 has passed? Have you received any directions about that?

[A/Commr Joanne Crampton]

No, not at all, and I would expect that we wouldn't receive that kind of direction.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Bogden, once this bill passes, will it allow Canadians to consume cannabis by vaping?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

That's a question that relates to the regulations. It's a good question.

I'll ask my colleague Mr. Costen to answer that.

[Eric Costen]

This is a continuation of the questions you were asking earlier about edibles and the range of products, which will—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Well no, this is about—

[Eric Costen]

—about vaping particularly, yes.

The schedule to the act lists the types of cannabis that would be legal and itemizes them. The question of vaping, in particular, speaks to the qualities of what is being vaped and so, to the degree that there are chemicals used to create vaping cartridges that are not included in the schedule, it would not be permitted at the time of issuance. To the degree that those types of cannabis listed in the schedule could be used in a vaping, then it could be possible.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I have one last question.

Dr. Eyolfson asked a question about Canada-U.S. relations. Canadians know when they go to the border that U.S. border guards will often ask, “Have you ever smoked marijuana?” They don't ask about convictions; they ask if you've ever smoked marijuana.

Once this bill comes into force and it's legal in Canada, Canadians will be put in the position of either having to lie about that or to tell the truth and risk lack of entry. Is the Canadian government right now engaging in discussions with the United States, at the NAFTA table or otherwise, to protect Canadians once July 1, 2018 comes, if in fact, that's the date that cannabis consumption is legal in Canada?

[Kathy Thompson]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll take that question.

As I said earlier, CBSA will be working to make sure that Canadians are aware of the fact that it is illegal in the United States and also that it continues to be illegal and prohibited to import or export.

Also, they'll be reminded that every country has the right to determine admissibility, as does the U.S., and they will be counselled on responding truthfully to any questions asked by a border official. We'll make sure that the information is available.

We also talked about ticketing and where the record is maintained in terms of those judicial charges, so we will try to get as much information as possible out to Canadians.

With respect to your question about whether we are engaging with our U.S. counterparts, absolutely, we have been and we continue to be engaged with them as the bill continues to progress through Parliament, so they are in discussions with us, and we're trying to communicate the objectives of legalizing but strictly regulating cannabis and why we're taking that approach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

We have time for another first round. Is it the committee's wish that we continue to ask questions based on round one, only instead of seven-minute questions we will have five-minute questions? Do we have consensus on that? All right, we'll start it again with the Liberal Party, for five minutes.

John.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I have a question about federally licensed distribution versus provincially or territorially licensed distribution. As I understand it, when the bill is passed, a federally licensed producer will be able to distribute, through e-commerce provisions, to people who are buying online. It will be delivered through Canada Post and shipped that way. The Province of Ontario, for instance, just came out with a plan that the LCBO will be its main distributor. First of all, is it true that a federally licensed producer will be able to distribute through e-commerce under the provisions of this legislation? What will happen then to the provinces, which think they have their hands on how it's going to be done, when there's a parallel federal system?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

The legislation provides for provinces and territories to be able to authorize distribution and retail in their provinces. That's the design of the bill. As it relates to the prospective coming into force of the legislation, no later than July 2018, which the government has committed to do providing the legislation is passed by Parliament, what you're referring to would apply only in provinces and territories that have not put in place a regulated retail system. If provinces have put in place a regulated retail system, then those rules would apply, providing of course that the legislation meets the minimum conditions that the government has set out in the federal legislation, and for those provinces that have not yet put in place a system, the federal government will then authorize federally licensed producers to distribute in those jurisdictions.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Where do I find in the legislation the right of a federally licensed producer to directly sell? Otherwise, it looks like it's illegal.

[Diane Labelle]

It is both a policy and a legal decision. From a policy perspective, my understanding is that as provinces establish their own regimes for retail and distribution in the provinces, the federal government will then be satisfied that there's lawful access for adults in those provinces and will then be able to step back in terms of the online sales by licensed producers. There are various ways the Minister of Health will be able to address the licensing aspect, with regard to licensed producers. Where we might draw a distinction is with respect to licensed producers continuing to sell directly for medical purposes.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

How does that happen in real terms? Does the province then have to pass legislation that says we forbid any e-commerce shipping other than what we've envisioned through our permissions? How do you actually police it? To me it seems like a big, opaque, unclear aspect of distribution, and it's hard to determine in the legislation how you intend to handle it.

[Diane Labelle]

I think what's clear, if we look at clause 69, is that a province brings into place a statute that covers four important aspects: that they can sell only cannabis that's been produced by a person authorized under this act, in other words, a federally licensed producer; that they may not sell to young people; that they're required to keep appropriate records—

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I understand what the provinces' requirements are.

[Diane Labelle]

Right. So, once they have that legislation in place and they establish their retail sales system, whether that's online—

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Do you then federally forbid e-commerce into that province at that point in time?

[Diane Labelle]

It's not that it's forbidden; it's that the Minister of Health has the tools necessary to address the situation through licensing producers and determining which jurisdictions they can go into.

Mr. Costen may wish to add to this.

[Eric Costen]

I'll try to wrap this all up, but I'm not a lawyer. Recognizing that, on day one, consumers in Canada have a legal option to purchase cannabis, the policy design of the entire system suggests that the ultimate retail environment will be designed and implemented and overseen by provincial and territorial governments. It recognizes, as Ms. Bogden said in her opening remarks, that this is a transformative and complex undertaking, and that on day one, if a particular jurisdiction doesn't have a retail environment established yet, there is the option that at the federal level a producer who is licensed by the federal government can sell directly to a consumer in a particular jurisdiction.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

That option is a granted permission or is it just there as a legal thing they can do?

[Eric Costen]

There are a bunch of different regulatory mechanisms by which we could grant it, but it would be a permission given to the company. That permission can be defined in a number of different ways.

Does that help?