Health Committee on April 22nd, 2020

[Patrick Tanguy]

Okay. Thank you.

There are three key points. First, the government operations centre was activated on January 23, 2020. The activation was carried out progressively, from level 1 to level 3. We moved to level 3 on February 2.

Second, the departments were already working together when the centre was activated, both at the Public Health Agency of Canada and at Health Canada.

Third, we needed to coordinate the response to ensure that it was based on science. To that end, our ongoing and consistent interactions with our colleagues at Health Canada and the Public Health Agency enabled us to engage the departments and agencies, while we turned our attention to public health notices.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Can we now determine that the notices weren't effective? We often wondered why there weren't any procedures in place at the airports. Even John Ossowski, the president of the Canada Border Services Agency, told the Standing Committee on Health on two occasions that his hands were tied. He had to follow Health Canada's guidelines when, as president of the Canada Border Services Agency, he would have taken different measures to ensure safety. As we've seen, the virus ended up entering Canada through travellers.

Do you think that the protocol in place is satisfactory? Is that what you're saying?

[Patrick Tanguy]

I'm saying that the protocol was very significant. All the officials needed to look to science to provide the best advice on what to do.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

I have another question. Today, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister were asked a question about the border. There's an issue with the United States. The joint agreement between Canada and the United States was renewed for 30 days. However, there's a change. Yesterday, border services officers were informed that, from now on, refugee protection claims can be made at border crossings, such as the Lacolle, Quebec border crossing. People who come to Roxham Road can proceed to the Lacolle border crossing.

Do you have anything more specific to say about this? This raises many questions. Given that the border is supposed to be closed, why are refugee protection claims being accepted?

[Patrick Tanguy]

Thank you for your question.

I'm not in a position to comment. I can easily refer the matter to my colleagues at the Canada Border Services Agency. They're in a better position to comment on this issue.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Stamatakis, you spoke of coordination issues and a lack of equipment in the penitentiaries. In terms of the three issues that you raised, from the start, everyone seems to have been talking about a job well done and a timely implementation of the plans. However, from your perspective, you can clearly see the lack of coordination.

What could be done as quickly as possible, especially in the future?

Should some of the protocols in place be changed?

[Tom Stamatakis]

From my perspective, I think there needs to be better coordination around the messaging. We were hearing federal officials commenting publicly about things like self-isolation orders or quarantine orders. Those comments were widely covered by the media, yet on the street, on the front line where our members are operating, we were not getting any information initially about what the expectations were of police.

That puts the police in a difficult situation, because we're now in the middle. The public is saying, “What are you doing about this?” and “Why aren't you taking enforcement action?” and other people are asking, “Why are you trying to prevent me from going to this park? Why are you criticizing me for leaving my home?”, etc.

I understand that any decisions have to be evidence-based and informed by the science, but there needs to be a better coordination of the messaging from the federal government, in my view, which has a leadership role to play, and then through to its provincial and municipal partners. We had a lot of inconsistent messaging from all levels of government at the outset of this pandemic, from my perspective, on behalf of the members that I represent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We go now to Dr. Jaczek.

Dr. Jaczek, you have six minutes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their very thoughtful comments. In a situation like the one in which we find ourselves now, it's so important to work together and look to the future and find out how we could do better if we ever face this dreadful situation again.

My first question is for Monsieur Tanguy.

Monsieur Tanguy, you have talked a lot about the government operations centre's mandate of collaboration and close coordination with provinces and territories and their emergency operations centres. We've also heard from Mr. Stamatakis and Mr. Wilkins that there's a great deal of frustration about the messaging for their members operating in different provinces and territories. Whether, as in your case, it's mostly about acquisition of personal protective equipment or about the public health messaging, it is a very frustrating situation when there is a lack of consistency across Canada.

From your perspective—and we've heard this sort of comment at this committee before—should there be stronger measures taken federally to ensure consistency, as opposed to your current very collaborative process?

[Patrick Tanguy]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

I have a few comments on that front. I believe—and we heard it from all provinces and territories and other partners, and also from different federal ministers and the Prime Minister—that there has been incredible collaboration among different governments, and this collaboration has made it possible for us to coordinate our actions. Obviously, each jurisdiction will make decisions within its own powers.

At the same time, I believe that we can always do better. With respect to information sharing, we played this enabling role at the federal level by bringing in the emergency management table and the health table. I think it's crucial that we continue to focus on working together at all different levels of government, including the municipal level, just to make sure that we do an even better job on coordination. I believe that's the right track to follow.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Following up on that—and I will be asking the Public Health Agency of Canada a question as well—from your perspective, when you get requests for proposals for equipment to provide surge capacity in this regard, how do you coordinate that?

The stockpile is housed within the Public Health Agency of Canada. You also have opportunities with military stockpiles. What exactly is the process that you use? Do you first use up the stockpile before procurement, or what do you do? Could you elaborate on how this actually works?

[Patrick Tanguy]

The government operations centre has a platform, so all the subject matter experts are continually working together.

In the case of the PPE, the personal protective equipment, for instance, we would work under the leadership of the Public Health Agency and the health department. In terms of coordinating, we've done it. My minister has been reaching out to provinces and territories to find out about their needs on that front, and I've done it at my level. We make sure to share that information with our colleagues at the Public Health Agency and the health department because there is an initiative to be coordinating internally within the federal system under the leadership of those two entities.

I would suggest that maybe my colleague Sally Thornton could complement the answer here.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Ms. Thornton, from your perspective, how do you liaise with the government operations centre? At the end of your statement, you hinted a bit about what the NESS would look like going forward.

You had a stockpile, but presumably it wasn't sufficient to accommodate the surge capacity needed out in the field, so you needed to work with Procurement Canada. Describe to us how this works.

[Sally Thornton]

Again, we are not that familiar with what provinces had in their respective stockpiles. Realizing our focus is very much on PPE for the health sector, one of the first things we did very quickly was to get a heads-up in terms of where there would be national and international gaps. We made a decision to do bulk procurement simply because we have a competitive advantage when we go with bulk procurement.

We put out a number of orders through Public Services and Procurement Canada for the things that we knew were going to be in short supply, such as gowns and N95 masks. The bulk procurement gave us an advantage. When we receive these things, we actually allocate them to our provincial and territorial counterparts in the health sector. There's a base amount that goes out just to make sure they have some supply in terms of planning and preparedness, but the initial requests for assistance really deal with urgent needs.

Our provincial and territorial counterparts know what they have in stock and they're getting more familiar with their burn rates. For example, if they have 25,000 medical masks, they know they will need more on Saturday. That is for our priority distribution. In many instances, it is a just-in-time distribution, complemented, where there aren't such acute shortages, by getting things pre-positioned for the longer term.

That's really how we are working now with our procurement folks and our provincial and territorial counterparts. Our distribution either comes to the NESS first, and then goes to our provincial and territorial counterparts, or, depending on the origin of the supply, it doesn't have to come through the NESS but can go directly where the needs are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Dr. Jaczek.

We'll now give the floor to Mr. Thériault for six minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate your efforts. You have a very nice French accent.

I want to address the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers.

Earlier, you said that action was needed to deal with the additional risks brought about by this pandemic and focus on three things: screening tests, personal protective equipment and adequate contingency planning processes.

On April 21, there were 51 confirmed cases at Joliette of inmates with COVID-19, out of a population of approximately 130 inmates; there were 49 at the Federal Training Centre in Laval; and 14 at Port-Cartier Institution. So there are 114 confirmed cases among inmates in Quebec, with only 188 screening tests done.

First of all, do you think that the number of tests done is enough? Do you think that this lack of testing has now been addressed, or does it still exist?

Next, do your officers currently have enough personal protective equipment to do their jobs properly? We've seen that, in closed living environments, they often become vectors of contamination through no fault of their own.

[Jeff Wilkins]

First I'll address the question about personal protective equipment.

We have not been given any indication by Correctional Services that there is a lack of personal protective equipment. Our questions are often about where it is going to be used.

When I spoke about the planning in my opening comments and the contingencies in all of these things that need to be discussed at the local level, those have to do with what's going to happen when the virus comes. When I talked about the personal protective equipment, it's about when you use it. It's only now that the levels of PPE that are required in certain situations are coming down to the field through our health and safety committees. If we have an inmate who has tested positive for COVID or is symptomatic for COVID, of course the response to coming into contact with that inmate is far different from what it is when we are able to keep a social distance. I can tell you that an inadequate stock of personal protective equipment has not been flagged to us; our question is about where it's used.

When it comes to the testing, we know that the 188 tests, as you say, for those institutions alone are of course for those inmates who are symptomatic or are expressing symptoms.

In my opening comments I referred to testing being a priority. What I meant by that is that public health comes into the institution when somebody tests positive for COVID. They do contact tracing, and those officers who might have been around an inmate or another staff member are told to go home and self-isolate for 14 days. They're asymptomatic, so they're not able to get a test in the province where they live because they don't have any symptoms, but they have to stay at home for 14 days.

The problem we are having, and what blew up very rapidly first at Port-Cartier Institution, was that a significant majority of our staff members were sent home to self-isolate. Then the members are forced to create different schedules and work excessive hours just to keep the front line strong. Of course testing is an important piece for the inmate population, but it's also important for correctional officers when they're sent home.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Unless I've misunderstood, you said that some of your members had to return to work before getting the test results. Could you explain why and tell us if that's still the case now?

Are people being forced to return to work before they even get the test results?

[Jeff Wilkins]

Of course, this concern was raised to us from Mission Institution. Mission Institution has a very high rate of inmates who are infected now. As of today, I believe it's 64 inmates and nine staff, and one other staff member besides the correctional officers.

Again, it came down to the contact tracing. They did all the contact tracing and sent an entire group of individuals home to self-isolate for 14 days on the advice of public health. Because of the staffing concern and the unwillingness to bring in staff from other institutions for a period of time on a voluntary basis or pay for things such as overtime or whatever is required, what we were seeing there was that they were calling up the people who were off at home and saying that it had been six days and the contact tracing went a little too far and they were able to come back to work. Believe it or not, one of the officers they asked to come back to work tested positive for COVID the day after they asked him to come back to work, so you can imagine what kind of impact that would have had, had he come back into the workplace.

Your question is whether it is continuing today: not as far as I am aware. I think we have solved that issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We go now to Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Stamatakis, my first question is for you.

I live in Vancouver, where you have had a long and great career with the Vancouver Police Department. I reached out to some of your members in advance of this meeting and asked what their challenges and concerns were. I want to read to you one response I got.

The VPD officer said, “Most of my challenges and concerns are mostly answered with 'Just wear PPE' and 'You're going to get it eventually.' The reality of working on the front line is I'm not able to avoid high-risk interactions when it comes to COVID, and I feel like it's just assumed by the government that we will get it and to suck it up. I personally don't disagree with that assertion, but I know it makes lots of my co-workers, who have elderly relatives at home, much more nervous. Numerous times, I've had to deal with situations without PPE, as without my immediate intervention there could have been bodily harm or more. The current answer to that, afterwards, is 'Keep coming back to work until you show symptoms.' Couple that with constantly having to attend SROs at an increasing rate, working in close contact with people who have drug and mental issues that make even basic hygiene out of the question, and sharing all of my equipment—there is no end.”

Mr. Stamatakis, given jurisdictions like New York City, where 4,000 members of the NYPD have tested positive for COVID-19 and about 15% of the uniformed workforce is out sick, do you have any similar concerns with respect to your membership?

[Tom Stamatakis]

Thank you for the question.

That's why, in my opening remarks, I tried to emphasize that one of the challenges of policing in this very unprecedented environment is exactly what that officer you were in contact with described to you. We often don't know whom we're dealing with, and we have little control over the environment within which we're interacting with people. These are very real concerns. That's why the level of anxiety for police personnel through this pandemic has been so heightened.

We try to put protocols in place to mitigate the risk as much as possible, whether that's through the issuing of PPE or changing how we respond to different calls, minimizing the number of times that we might be interacting with the public, where maybe we would normally interact with them in normal circumstances but now we don't, because we want to try to prevent police officers from being exposed. It's a very real issue, and I think the approach we've taken is to try to raise issues when they come up. I think the approach we're taking now is to try to identify some of the concerns we've had to try to look prospectively at how we can address these in the future as this thing continues.

To that end, I've had good lines of communication with Minister Blair and Public Safety Canada officials, who have been responsive to some of the issues that we've raised. However, it is an unprecedented situation, and what that officer describes is what officers are experiencing right across the country.

We're fortunate in Canada that we've had few officers.... We've had officers in almost every jurisdiction test positive, but they haven't been significant numbers. Where we've been more challenged is with officers who have been exposed and then have to self-isolate, and then we have to manage the deployment issues that arise from that. We manage that through—and I alluded to this in my opening remarks—the need for testing and easy access to medical professionals who can give our members good advice. For the most part, in most jurisdictions, we do have access to advice from medical professionals, which we're trying to take advantage of.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Tanguy, Minister Blair said at a news conference that literally hundreds of federal inmates have been granted early release in response to COVID-19 outbreaks. Could you inform the committee of both how many inmates have applied for early or exceptional release because of COVID-19, and how many have been released to date?

[Patrick Tanguy]

This is outside my area of responsibility. I will take this back, and we can provide the information.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Thornton, on April 1, federal health minister Patty Hajdu admitted that the federal government likely did not have enough protective equipment in the national emergency strategic stockpile. She said, “We likely did not have enough. I think federal governments for decades have been underfunding things like public-health preparedness”.

I have two questions. Would you advise this committee that federal governments have been underfunding NESS for decades? At any time in the last 10 years, has PHAC warned the federal government that NESS has been underfunded?