Evidence of meeting #16 for Health in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vaccine.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erica Pereira  Committee Clerk
Robert Fowler  Professor of Medicine and Program Director, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Care Research, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Rob Annan  President and Chief Executive Officer, Genome Canada
Tarik Möröy  President, Canadian Society for Molecular Biosciences
Volker Gerdts  Director and Chief Executive Officer, VIDO-InterVac
Paul Hodgson  Associate Director, Business Development, VIDO-InterVac
Cindy Bell  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Development, Genome Canada

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 16 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health. Pursuant to the orders of reference of April 11 and April 20, 2020, the committee is meeting for the purpose of receiving evidence concerning matters related to the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation in this video conference will work very much like it does in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of the floor or English or French. If you will be speaking in both official languages, please ensure that the interpretation is listed as the language you will speak before you start. For example, if you are going to speak English, please switch to the English feed before you speak. This will allow for better sound quality for interpretation.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. This, of course, will vary once we get into questions. When you are ready to speak, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Should members need to request the floor outside of their designated time for questions, they should activate their mike and state that they have a point of order. I remind everyone that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, please ensure that your microphone is on mute. If you have ear buds with a microphone, please hold the microphone near your mouth when you're speaking.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise the chair or clerk immediately, and the technical team will work to resolve them.

Before we get started, can everyone click on the screen in the top right-hand corner, if in fact you're on a PC, and ensure that you are on gallery view? With this view, you should be able to see all of the participants in a grid-like fashion. It will ensure that all video participants can see one another.

Before we go to the witnesses, I understand that Mr. Jeneroux has a bit of committee business.

Mr. Jeneroux.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a brief question, through you to the clerk, and then a bit of a statement, if you don't mind. I'll be as brief as I can.

First of all, Mr. Chair, is a motion to summon a witness in order in this committee?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you for the question.

When this came up before, I indicated hesitation on the matter and took it under advisement. I later asked the clerk and the law clerk for a determination on whether the motion was in order, since there was some discussion on it last time. I will now ask the clerk to respond to the committee.

Madam Clerk, please go ahead, if you would.

5:10 p.m.

Erica Pereira Committee Clerk

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As members are aware, paragraph (n) of the order adopted on April 11 states the following:

(n) in addition to receiving evidence, the committees enumerated in paragraphs (l) and (m) of this order, while meeting by videoconference or teleconference, may also consider motions requesting or scheduling specific witnesses, and these motions shall be decided by way of a recorded vote;

In addition, the motion agreed to on April 20 further extends this order in subparagraph (f)(iii), which includes the following:

(f) for greater certainty, the following provisions remain in effect:

...(iii) paragraphs (k) to (n) and (p) to (t) of the order adopted on Saturday, April 11, 2020....

As the the order states clearly that this committee may consider motions requesting or scheduling specific witnesses, a motion to summon a witness is therefore admissible, as it is a logical extension of the parameters outlined in paragraph (n) of the order adopted on April 11 and in subparagraph (f)(iii) of the order adopted on April 20.

However, I would also like to bring the committee's attention to the following passages from House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition. On page 981, it states that, “The Standing Orders place no explicit limitation on this power. In theory, it applies to any person on Canadian soil.” It goes on to say, a few lines later, “In practice, certain limitations are recognized on the power to order individuals to appear. Because committee powers do not extend outside Canadian territory, a committee cannot summon a person who is in another country.”

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As the clerk has just explained, Dr. Aylward has again turned down our invitation to appear at this committee. I would just like to point out that Dr. Aylward is a Canadian and represents Canada at the WHO. This committee was tasked unanimously with studying the Government of Canada's response to COVID-19. I don't think anyone would argue that the WHO has not played a key role in that response. The government has been relying on data from the WHO and has been implementing measures here in Canada based on the WHO's recommendations. That is why it is important that Dr. Aylward and the WHO partake in our study on the government's response.

I therefore move that:

That, upon the Chair being informed of his return to Canada, the Standing Committee on Health summon Dr. Bruce Aylward to appear before the Committee at a date and time to be determined by the Chair.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I would like to inform the committee that the World Health Organization has agreed to answer written questions to the best of their abilities, which could provide us a possible alternative method of getting the required information.

I will now open debate on the motion. I believe, Mr. Jeneroux, you've already made your statement.

If anyone wishes to enter debate on this motion, please use the “raise hand” feature by clicking on “Participants” at the bottom of your screen and then clicking on your name.

Does anyone wish to speak on this motion?

Mr. Davies, go ahead, please.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to speak in support of the motion by Mr. Jeneroux. I endorse all of the reasons that he indicated so clearly. I would just point out that responding to written questions is helpful, but it's not as helpful as having Dr. Aylward appear by video conference to hear and respond to live questions from the committee. I would note, for the record, that Dr. Aylward has done interviews in exactly that format with media outlets, so clearly he has been willing, and the WHO has been willing, to make Dr. Aylward available to answer questions to the media. I don't see any principled reason that they would not make Dr. Aylward available to this committee to answer similar questions. I would also point out that Canada is a member of the WHO, and I think the WHO ought to operate with transparency and accountability to its members.

As Mr. Jeneroux pointed out, I think the Minister of Health and this government, and Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Tam, have repeatedly invoked the World Health Organization as a source of guidance and background information to inform the decisions made in Canada. This committee is tasked with assessing the validity, usefulness and effectiveness of the government's response. I can't see how hearing from the WHO wouldn't help us in carrying out the task that's been given to us unanimously by Parliament.

I will conclude by saying that I appreciate that Dr. Aylward is in Geneva, so the summons can't be executed at the moment. However, if we do issue this summons, then if and/or when Dr. Aylward does return to Canada, the summons will be in place and in a position to be executed at that time. I would endorse this motion accordingly.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I will call the question, and I would ask the clerk to do a recorded vote on this.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

I have a point of order, Madam Clerk.

You did not call my name.

5:20 p.m.

The Clerk

Thank you, Ms. Jaczek.

I do not have you substituted in. Only members of the committee will have their votes counted.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

The motion has passed. We will arrange for the summons to be created.

I don't recall if a date or time was specified, but I think it will be a time determined by the chair. We will get that under way and report back to the committee when that occurs.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

As an individual, we have Dr. Robert Fowler, professor of medicine and program director of clinical epidemiology and health care research at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto. From the Canadian Society for Molecular Biosciences, we have Dr. Tarik Möröy. From Genome Canada, we have Dr. Rob Annan and Dr. Cindy Bell. Dr. Annan is president and CEO. Dr. Bell is executive vice-president, corporate development. From VIDO-InterVac, we have Dr. Volker Gerdts, director and chief executive officer, and Dr. Paul Hodgson, associate director, business development.

We will start with Dr. Fowler for 10 minutes. Please, go ahead with your statement.

5:20 p.m.

Dr. Robert Fowler Professor of Medicine and Program Director, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Care Research, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I would like to thank the honourable members, and Mr. Davies in particular, for the invitation.

As stated, I am a critical care physician. I work at Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto, where I am now. I've had the opportunity also to engage in graduate studies at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health, and I chair the Canadian Critical Care Trials Group, a world-leading group of interprofessional academic researchers and patient partners who study the best care for our sickest patients.

My own personal and academic interests, clinically, are around the care of critically ill patients. That is directly relevant to the COVID pandemic. I've had an opportunity to examine other health care systems in well-resourced settings first-hand and academically. Also, my work with the WHO and various non-governmental organizations during SARS and different outbreaks and pandemics over the years includes avian influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome, and a couple of years of Ebola outbreaks in western Africa and, last year, in the DRC. I have helped the WHO and the Public Health Agency in most of these outbreaks in one capacity or another through guidelines or clinical care on the ground.

In terms of disclosures, I don't have any financial relationships with industry or pharmaceutical companies. I have received peer-reviewed funding from CIHR, and I am supporting the Canadian response to WHO's solidarity trial, which examines and evaluates medications for COVID-19.

The context I'll speak from otherwise is more specific to COVID-19.

As we know, it has spread rapidly over the last four months to many countries around the world. The infection rate is unknown but estimated at over three million people, causing 200,000 deaths, and well over 50,000 cases in Canada with approximately 3,000 deaths. Despite this most commonly causing mild illness, the temporal concentration of infections among susceptible populations has, at times, overwhelmed seemingly robust health care systems and their capacities, specifically too few intensive care beds and ventilators for patients and too little personal protective equipment for health care workers. That's been seen prominently in other jurisdictions, and we have been worried about it in Canada. We have prepared for it, but have been just on the precipice.

Probably people are very familiar with this by now through their own knowledge or reading, this being a very common topic in the lay press. It typically presents as a mild illness, respiratory in nature, but can progress to cause severe pneumonia, the need for oxygen, administration of mechanical ventilation and on rare occasions sometimes beyond that, we need circulation of the blood outside the body to provide oxygen and carbon dioxide removal and some assistance for the heart and lungs with dialysis and pump function. These patients can get very ill. Therefore, care in a hospital ICU is one of the direct elements of this outbreak, more so than others we have experienced, by the numbers of patients who have been infected and presented at hospitals.

In many of the publications to date, the mortality rates among those requiring intensive care has been shockingly high for me, as someone who treats patients in an ICU all the time.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Dr. Fowler, the interpreters have noted that the sound quality is not good enough for interpretation. Could you try very hard to speak a little more loudly and more directly into the mike? Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Professor of Medicine and Program Director, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Care Research, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Robert Fowler

I'll try, and I appreciate the interruption.

We're fortunate that this has only occurred intermittently in Canada. The Public Health Agency's leadership and social distancing messaging have so far mitigated the impact on certain elements of the health care system that would be overwhelmed, although the aged who are living in long-term care homes—and I've visited a number of them in my local area in the past week—have not been protected. This is a big issue for this outbreak. It's something that may invite questions.

On the response to learn more about this outbreak, CIHR has demonstrated some fairly strong leadership and made some tough decisions to support the early research response. I think we have an opportunity to work more collaboratively on the ground with respect to learning during this outbreak, and one of the main points—

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I'm sorry, Dr. Fowler. Again, we're having a problem with interpretation. The sound is very difficult for the interpreters. Interpretation is quite a challenging thing, particularly simultaneous translation, so the better the sound quality, the better off we are.

5:25 p.m.

Professor of Medicine and Program Director, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Care Research, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Robert Fowler

Let me try again and we'll see if it is any better for the interpreters.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Please carry on. If the interpreters are having a problem they'll step in and let us know.

5:25 p.m.

Professor of Medicine and Program Director, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Care Research, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Robert Fowler

Thanks.

On the ground, we would benefit from a greater pan-Canadian collaboration and better public health knowledge of existing resources and gaps—for instance, how many ICU beds and ventilators exist in hospitals and regions—and from a stronger, better coordinated structure for clinical research and quality improvement to characterize, to learn and to quickly improve care delivery for an otherwise unknown illness.

These shortcomings are understandably more apparent in the context of COVID-19, but they exist in usual times as well.

The 13 provincial and territorial health care systems have a lot in common but also differ in ways that should enable more constant cross-learning, and we don't always share insights from those natural experiments in health care delivery at the federal, provincial and territorial governments. We've not really created, I would say, an adequate pan-Canadian machinery to support a more systematic innovation and evaluation that would create some more nimble systems that promote higher-quality care in the context of an outbreak like this.

I'm going to speak just a bit about the clinical treatments and knowledge gaps that exist. As of today, there are still, I would say, no proven effective medical treatments against COVID-19. There are a number of pre-existing antiviral medications, anti-inflammatory medications and immune modulating drugs that are under investigation. Treatments with plasma from recovered patients, anticipating a high concentration of antibodies to COVID-19, are being investigated. Monoclonal antibodies manufactured and directed against specific aspects of the virus are under development. I think Canadian-led science in this field has been very impressive in the past, particularly so for other viruses such as Ebola.

Our best treatment options to date remain the best supportive care, including oxygen, mechanical ventilation and organ support as needed. We have knowledge gaps in the ideal ways to do these things, including how to move from oxygen supplementation to nasal prongs to masks to mechanical ventilation, and whether certain forms of our therapies may aerosolize the virus and place health care workers at increased risk. That's been a prominent concern for us in hospitals when treating patients and being part of that risk circle. In addition to medication trials, I would say that we should study the safety and effectiveness of those elements of supportive care.

So far, there have been many clinical trials, frequently examining a single treatment and typically enrolling too few patients to convincingly determine whether a treatment is effective or not, and they have been concluded oftentimes without necessarily helping the next generation of patients. Clinical treatments and research performed in one jurisdiction with one treatment are usually inconclusive. This is another call for mechanisms for collaborative pan-Canadian and international initiatives that draw upon more durable research infrastructure to examine treatments in parallel with one another and to reach a conclusion on one medication and not have to stop a single treatment trial before moving on to the next evaluation, which is typical of many of the ways that we fund and undertake trials.

One of the early and valid concerns of the pandemic, I think, has been the risk of a sustained situation of overwhelmed hospitals and ICUs with too few ventilators and an excess of preventable deaths. This has occurred in many developed health care systems, including most recently throughout many parts of the U.S. We've come very close to this possibility—I think probably really for the first time in our modern history—of explicitly planning on how to deny care to those in need because of a lack of commonly available resources.

While social distancing has flattened the curve of infections, the frail, vulnerable and aged Canadians living in long-term care homes who cannot partake in social distancing have been at continued high risk of contracting the illness and dying once COVID has taken hold. This has been recognized for a long time, and I think it's an important element of this outbreak, which is much more prominent and visible to the population and is one that we should not lose sight of as we go through it.

Similarly, I would say that health care workers in long-term care facilities have not been adequately prepared and supported. This is something that we can do better in the future.

I wanted to comment on other jurisdictions and what we might learn from others' examples. While many highly resourced countries have been pushed beyond their existing capacity by this pandemic, some have shown a much greater ability to respond quickly and to learn from the experience.

I want to highlight a particular example in the United Kingdom, which has a similar burden of infection by population as the U.S. does, but they have done very well with responding with respect to research and a learning health care system, and I think we might draw on some lessons there.

It's underpinned by a couple of decades of political commitment to medical research with a goal of driving value into the system, improving care through innovation, and evaluating that innovation and adopting it when appropriate.

The U.K., at one-fifth the size of the U.S. and about one-twentieth the size of China, has been the first to develop and take a vaccine for COVID into clinical trials, and at the clinical front lines it's leading the world with a longitudinally supported research network in NHS hospitals across lots of specialty areas. This is something that in my own field of critical care we've seen for a number of years, and we are envious of their ability to support longitudinal research in a durable way through funding from their national funder and then to the coalface at NHS hospitals.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Dr. Fowler, could you wrap up, please?

5:30 p.m.

Professor of Medicine and Program Director, Clinical Epidemiology and Health Care Research, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Dr. Robert Fowler

Yes. I want to wrap up with a few key messages.

I think that these sorts of outbreaks, and indeed this pandemic, are likely to occur with increasing frequency. We have a deep knowledge base and expertise in basic science, public health and clinical medicine to counter transmissible infectious diseases. I think we're still challenged a bit by a lack of a collaborative pan-Canadian sort of at-the-ready clinical research infrastructure, and this results in some delays and inefficiencies in our ability to characterize. I think this is something that there are concrete ways to improve upon in the future.

Thanks very much for your time, attention and any questions that might be relevant.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Dr. Fowler.

We go now to Genome Canada, with Dr. Annan or Dr. Bell to present a 10-minute statement, please.

5:35 p.m.

Dr. Rob Annan President and Chief Executive Officer, Genome Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee.

I am here on behalf of Genome Canada and I am joined today by Dr. Cindy Bell, who has been with Genome Canada since we were founded 20 years ago. It played an important science leadership role during the SARS outbreak in 2003 and is doing so again today.

We're very pleased today to join colleagues from the University of Toronto, the Canadian Society for Molecular Biosciences, and the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization based at the University of Saskatchewan, to share insights from Canada's bioscience community and to engage in dialogue with committee members.

I want to pay tribute to the front-line workers in hospitals, in grocery stores, in pharmacies, at truck stops and at take-out counters.

I'm also thinking of the millions of Canadians who make sacrifices every day to help fight COVID-19.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm not getting the translation.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Chair, neither am I.