Health Committee on Feb. 26th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

I thank the witnesses for being here, but we just have a little bit of committee business to take care of first. Hopefully that won't take very long. Thank you for being here.

In committee business, we met yesterday as a subcommittee to prioritize our four studies. That report has been distributed.

I'll read this into the record.

Your Subcommittee met on Tuesday, February 25, 2020, to consider the business of the committee and agreed to make the following recommendations:

1. That the committee proceed to its future studies in the following order:

1. Palliative care

2. Primary care models

3. Assisted dying and mental illness

4. National dental care program

2. That, in relation to the study of palliative care in Canada, committee members submit their prioritized witness lists, with the witnesses' complete contact information, to the Clerk of the committee no later than Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at Noon.

3. That, with regards to the meeting of Monday, March 9, 2020, one hour be dedicated to a briefing with officials from the Department of Health in relation to the study of palliative care in Canada, and one hour be dedicated to the consideration of the work plan prepared by the analysts in relation to this study.

Respectfully submitted,

Ron McKinnon

Chair

Is it the will of the committee to adopt this recommendation?

Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the subcommittee for their hard work on this. I can't let it pass that I kind of hoped we would do the dental study first, but that is the will of the subcommittee, and if that is the will of the committee, then so be it. I can always hope for a speedy committee report, then off to the next one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Are there any other comments?

(Motion agreed to)

Is there any other committee business before we carry on?

Dr. Kitchen.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Chair, I apologize to the witnesses, but there is a little more committee business that I would like to get done. I would like to bring forward my motions today.

I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order all documents, including briefing notes, memos, emails, text messages, and summaries of phone calls prepared for the Minister of Health, Minister of Transport, Minister of Public Safety, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Minister of National Defence regarding the outbreak of the coronavirus, no later than February 28, 2020.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Okay. Do you wish to speak to the motion?

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Certainly. I know we put this on notice earlier, and I understand there have been some discussions about it. As we're dealing with the issue of COVID-19 and how important it is that we're on top of the facts and moving forward, it's very important for all of us to understand what's been going on so that we can put those pieces together as we look further at the issue of COVID-19.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Kelloway.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Chair, we strongly support transparency on this very important issue, but, as drafted, the motion seems to put a heavy strain on the Public Health Agency, the chief public health officer Dr. Theresa Tam, and other departments actively managing the situation. It seems that a lot of pages, a lot of sensitive documents, ranging from patient information to cabinet confidence, are being tabled for the public realm.

We've engaged ministers who are connected to this motion, and they are prepared to provide briefing notes and memos to the committee, when requested.

Certainly it's exceptionally important that transparency is there, but we're looking to see if we can make some move in terms of issues related to cabinet confidence and national security, and focus on the motion but with some modifications.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Is there any further discussion?

I'm sorry, I was distracted. Did you make a motion to amend?

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Is there any discussion on the amendment?

Did we hear the amendment?

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Not yet. Oh, I'm sorry. I can read the modifications:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee request briefing notes and memos prepared for the Minister of Health, Minister of Transport, Minister of Public Safety, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Minister of National Defence regarding the outbreak of the coronavirus, no later than March 26, 2020;

The addition would be:

that matters of Cabinet confidence and national security be excluded from the request; and that any redactions to protect the privacy of Canadian citizens whose names and personal information may be included in the documents, as well as public servants who have been providing assistance on this matter, be made by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House of Commons.

I believe this is being circulated around in both official languages.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Is there any discussion on the amendments?

Mr. Jeneroux.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

The service of the parliamentary secretary here passing out amendments is wonderful.

Obviously, we have some concerns. It gets away from the intent of the motion as we intended it to be, although I'm curious as to why the date also changed. I heard you say February 26, I think. What we got passed out here by your parliamentary secretary says February 28. I'm not sure if that was just a mishap.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Did I say February?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I believe you said March.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It says here February 28.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's March 26.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

We'll never be able to do anything in two days.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It gets back to the point of our motion. A number of witnesses, some representing departments that are here in front of us again today, have indicated that there were significant meetings and working groups in the lead-up to this. I believe one witness even said that each day there is a call within all departments on this file. It is certainly a file where I think a lot of Canadians are looking for that transparency right now, because there has been a significant amount of confusion from the beginning on what Canada is doing in relation to the rest of the world when it comes to this.

We would certainly not support removing things like emails, text messages and summaries of phone calls, largely because we know, as history will show through the SNC-Lavalin communications, that there were a significant number of text messages, which were really a preferred way to communicate by certain ministers and certain senior-level bureaucrats. We want to make sure that we have those three in there.

With regard to the rest of the motion, the addition of “that matters...”, we are okay with that, with the exception that we would remove the “cabinet confidence” piece of that, because with an issue as serious as this, as we have seen, the nation is essentially seized with daily updates on what's going on. The reasons for full transparency and accountability, I believe, are second to none.

We would accept pieces of this amendment, however, with the pieces I have highlighted, Mr. Chair. I would suggest a subamendment to his amendment: that the amendment be amended to replace the words “request briefing notes and memos” with the words “order all documents, including briefing notes, memos, emails, text messages, and summaries of phone calls”;

The amended motion would read:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order all documents, including briefing notes, memos, emails, text messages, and summaries of phone calls prepared for the Minister of Health, Minister of Transport, Minister of Public Safety, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Minister of National Defence regarding the outbreak of the coronavirus, no later than March 3, 2020; that matters of cabinet confidence and national security be excluded from the request, and that any redactions to protect the privacy of Canadian citizens whose names and personal information may be included in the documents, as well as public servants who have been providing assistance on this matter, be made by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House of Commons.

I'll quickly speak about the date we've indicated there. We put this motion on notice a number of weeks ago. This is certainly something that we've been made aware that the ministers' offices have been aware of. There should be no hesitation in terms of getting those emails, text messages, briefing notes, memos and summaries of phone calls, as there has been significant time in the lead-up to this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The discussion is on the amendment to the amendment, the subamendment.

Mr. Jeneroux, as the clerk pointed out, it seems that you just reread your original motion.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

No, we wanted to keep—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The subamendment is to amend the amendment by replacing the words “request briefing notes and memos” with the words “order all documents, including briefing notes, memos, emails, text messages, and summaries of phone calls”.

That stays the same, except to delete “cabinet confidence”.

Are we clear on the subamendment?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'm not.

Can you read the entire subamendment as it's proposed?