Health Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

By the nature of our process, I'm as blind to what will be in the budget as anybody else. I will have to defer to the budget document to know what's there.

I just want to validate how important school nutrition programs are. When I was at Heart and Stroke, being able to see the difference a single healthy meal a day has to children's health is incredibly powerful. It's not just powerful in that moment for that kid. It also allows them to develop a connection with healthy food and a palate for healthy food. It can be transformative for their entire lives.

We were talking diabetes earlier. Another conversation we really need to have as a country is nutrition and the disastrous effects of highly processed food and sugars on our health. If we're going to really deal with health, we have to be upstream. Certainly, we have to be dealing with nutrition and the ill effects of sugar.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Absolutely. Thank you, Minister. Yes, we heard some very profound testimony to that effect at committee when we were studying children's health.

Turning to nicotine products, experts across Canada have expressed serious concern about Zonnic, flavoured nicotine pouches from Imperial Tobacco that recently hit Canadian shelves. Disturbingly, this product was approved by Health Canada without any age barriers or restrictions on how it can be advertised or sold. We're seeing it pop up in convenience stores across the country, supported by marketing and flavours that appear to target youth. We've seen B.C. and Quebec take action.

Minister, you've said publicly that you felt “duped” by the tobacco industry, and you pledged a major crackdown. Can you confirm what action your government is planning to take, and precisely when that may begin?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Thank you so much.

Look, we want innovation in the space of cessation. We want innovative ideas to get people off of tobacco. It's still the number one cause of preventable death in this country. It is a horrible scourge. Tobacco companies internationally have utilized techniques that are reprehensible. What happened here is that they used that portal, where we want to see innovation for cessation, to pretend that they were doing something about cessation. What you then see come out is something that doesn't match it.

I'm seeking a couple of different authorities. One is to restrict flavours to what is only necessary and logical for the purposes of cessation. In the second order, I'm seeking authority to have marketing plans shown for products that are for cessation to ensure that they comport with the approved intended use of the product before it goes out, so that we don't see the circumstances you're talking about. Then the third order with respect to nicotine pouches, because they have already, unfortunately, in their treacherous behaviour, addicted a whole cohort of people who had no exposure to nicotine before—they've addicted a whole cohort of young people to this product—is that it's my belief that it needs to be moved behind the counter. That's already happened in B.C. That's already happened in Quebec. I think we have to be part of the solution to see that happen writ large across the country.

It's not just about these tobacco pouches. It's about what they did in vaping. It's about making sure that the legitimate space for innovation in cessation is never abused again in this kind of perverted way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

Next we have Mr. Cooper, please, for five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I presume you've read the Winnipeg lab documents.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

That's correct.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I have as well, so perhaps you can help me with something. Can you point to exactly where in the documents it states, “no sensitive information left the lab”?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

If you're talking about, at any time, what went into or out of the Winnipeg lab, it's clear that nothing left or entered the lab.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, I'm asking you to point to where it states in the documents that “no sensitive information left the lab”. You stated at your February 28 press conference, immediately following the release of the documents, that you were “absolutely certain—and you will see it in the documents—that no sensitive information left the lab”. That is contradicted and completely at odds with the conclusion in the PHAC report with respect to Dr. Qiu, which stated that sensitive information and assets were shared outside PHAC.

Why did you state the opposite of what you had to have known was the truth?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

In terms of what I was stating, I think it's important that we not be hyperbolic about this and that we be rooted in truth. The circumstance with these two Canadian citizens, who very disappointingly in a way that one couldn't have expected—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, you said you were “absolutely certain”—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Cooper, you took almost a minute to pose the question and you interrupted him after about 12 seconds.

Finish your answer, Minister.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In the first order, we were in a very different time at that moment in time. We were collaborating specifically on virology and thought we had a better partner. We weren't aware of the extent to which the Chinese government would have been involved in trying to influence domestic affairs. Two Canadian citizens—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, you said—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I think I got in about 12 seconds there.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

—that you were “absolutely certain—and you will see it in the documents—that no sensitive information left the lab”. Where in the documents does it state that? Where? I just quoted from the documents, and it states the opposite of what you've said.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Okay. I guess I get about half or a portion of the time they get to ask the question.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You're wasting time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

That's your characterization.

I understand the effort. I—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, maybe you can help me with something else. Can you point to where in the documents it states that the scientists didn't work with the Beijing military? On what page is that?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Okay. What I'm concerned about.... You've read the documents and I've read the documents. There were concerning things that happened there—no question—that were unacceptable. These eminent scientists who were Canadian citizens lied to us about their engagements. That's deeply disturbing, but I think in a hyperbolic way—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, you made that statement unequivocally in your press conference.

Again, if you've read the documents, which you claim you have, it states very clearly that the scientists collaborated with the Beijing military, including the highest medical research institution in the People's Liberation Army, and that Dr. Qiu collaborated with Beijing's chief biological weapons defence expert in areas of biodefence and bioterrorism. However, you said they didn't work with, they didn't collaborate with, the Beijing military.

How is it possible that you could have said that when you had to have known the opposite was true? Why were you spreading disinformation?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I don't know; maybe I'll get five seconds here. We'll see how much I'm allowed to say before I'm not given the opportunity.

First of all, I think it is incredibly dangerous—incredibly dangerous—to play games with national security and to mis-characterize what were very unfortunate events. I don't believe your characterization is at all accurate or representative of what's in the documents. I believe it's hyperbolic. I believe its intention is—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, I quoted you and I quoted the documents.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

No, I'm sorry, Mr. Cooper. He's about halfway through.

Go ahead.