Health Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Eric Costen]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to add to your point. What we've done, as part of our efforts to take a closer look at projects and understand the risks, is to, through consultations with experts in addiction medicine, understand what the top tier and the top thresholds of safeguards are that can be put in place when dealing with substitution therapy of any kind when a narcotic is involved. We would then apply those in the context of these projects.

To the earlier question, we will be prepared to move very quickly where we encounter evidence of systemic harm.

Yes, regarding Switzerland, we're very interested in the work being done in Switzerland with its heroin-assisted treatment program. They do seven-day carries now as part of an unsupervised dosing program, which we are studying very carefully to take as much from that experience as we can and apply it in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mr. Thériault, you have two and a half minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I have one more technical question.

In the government's November 2023 economic statement, the Minister of Finance announced the government's intention to eliminate the GST and HST on psychotherapy and counselling services. In Quebec, psychoeducators are wondering if they'll be entitled to this exemption too. Can you tell us if that includes the services of psychoeducators? If you can't answer, can you provide us with a written answer?

Minister, with regard to the RCMP seizure of prescription drugs, you say there's no way to prove where the drugs came from.

What can you tell us about where the drugs came from? How did they end up in the hands of organized crime? Can you comment on that?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you for your question.

I'd like to start by making sure that we are all on the same page about diversion. Diversion is illegal. It is illegal in all contexts in terms of all drugs and all medications. Diversion happens with pain medications, ADHD, anxiety prescriptions, and so on and so forth.

The question we're always asking is, how much diversion are you willing to accept? It happens in all of these spaces, with all of these prescriptions and in many different scenarios. We aren't stopping health care provision in those instances. If we are looking at hydromorphone and prescribed alternatives within that same context of health care provision, then we have to look at it through the same lens.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So you can't tell us anything today. You laid out principles. That said, I hope this will be investigated. It's important. The RCMP probably has to conduct its investigations and gather evidence. I understand the legal constraints around that, but at least give us some assurance that you're looking for answers to that, because it discredits what we can do in terms of harm reduction. That's what happens when people see this kind of news story that can be exploited for various purposes.

Do you agree with me? Are you going to make an effort to tell us what you can disclose about this? Are you at all concerned about following up on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Please give a brief response as we're at time.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

As I've said previously in this committee, the department and I take diversion very seriously, which is why we began a protocol review of our programs. We will continue to do that work. The department can provide you with a briefing on what we are doing working in collaboration with law enforcement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

The last round of questions for this panel will come from Mr. Johns, for the next two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, before I get into my questions, I want to say that Wellness Together Canada's ending deeply concerns me, and I want to know what's going to fill that need going forward. Also the bilateral meetings are not good enough. We saw P.E.I. saying they're spending zero money when it comes to mental health. I hope you'll work with me on this.

Minister, I want to get to this. We heard the Conservatives go on the attack on Dr. Sereda earlier in committee. Dr. Sereda posted on X a response to Adam Zivo, who's a freelance writer and weekly columnist at the National Post. He published in the small city where Dr. Sereda lives—not once but three times. She cited that she didn't feel safe in London, Ontario, because of a history of domestic violence. She had moved numerous times and eventually had to move to a new location to be safe. She very closely protects information on where she lives. Nothing is available online. She said her address is actually very difficult to find. Others have joined in online and mentioned the town where she is and where her kids are.

Dr. Sereda contacted Adam Zivo. She said that she moved to be safe from domestic violence and that his posts have made her feel unsafe. His response was that it's in the public's interest to know where she lives because she doesn't live in London where she prescribes safer supply.

He says public interest is as important as her privacy, despite the risks to her safety.

Police contacted Adam Zivo. He apologized and said he understood that he shouldn't have posted it, but he still refuses to remove the post. He has a pattern of attacking and slandering Dr. Sereda. Dr. Sereda has experienced harassment, vulgarity and more from his followers. Even after he knew about the safety risk, he posted it again, even saying her address was easy to find. That sounds like a call to action, challenging his followers to find her. It's not something you say to a woman who has asked you three times to take down her information for the sake of safety.

Therefore, I'm asking you, Minister, what you are going to do to protect the safety of these doctors and medical health professionals. I'm hoping this committee is actually going to write to the National Post. Also, imagine if this were on the flip side, if this were the media and people started posting addresses of the editor of the National Post or staff at the National Post. This is unacceptable. What are you going to do about it to protect these health professionals?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you for the questions.

I'll start with the first question with regard to Wellness Together Canada.

During the pandemic, Wellness Together—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm looking for an answer on Dr. Sereda because of the time. Are you going to put forward legislation? What are you going to do to protect this doctor?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You're out of time, Mr. Johns, so just allow her to give a short response, please.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

As in all cases such as this, we would work with local law enforcement to ensure the safety of health care providers. We've actually passed legislation to ensure the protection of health care providers.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Can I ask for a response in writing, Mr. Chair, from the minister on how she's going to respond to my question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You can ask for a response, and you just have.

Thank you. That concludes the rounds of questions for this panel.

Colleagues, I would ask you to remain, as we bid goodbye to the witnesses, for one brief matter that we need to touch on before we wrap up.

Minister and officials, thank you so much for being with us and for being so patient in answering our questions. I hope this is the most challenging thing you have to do all day.

Thank you very much. You're welcome to stay, but you're free to leave.

Colleagues, before we adjourn, I have something time-sensitive that I want to raise. Normally this would be done in camera, but it is on the subject of the planned committee travel in the month of April. There have been concerns expressed about the availability of members of Parliament to make that trip. I guess my question for you is whether it is the will of the committee to conduct the trip, as we had discussed, during the break week in April, or whether it would be your preference to do it during the break week in May. I think Dr. Ellis—

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, I move that we go in camera for this discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That is an excellent suggestion except that we are trading on the goodwill of our resource folks and our translators now, and that would probably test the limits of that goodwill.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

It would take two minutes to move in camera, and then to have this conversation it would take probably five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Can we have seven minutes?

[An hon. member]

Why do we need to go in camera?

[A voice]

It's standard practice to discuss this—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

They're right. This is something that would normally be done in camera.

We're going to suspend for one minute to see if this is going to be possible. Otherwise, we'll be entertaining a motion for adjournment.

All right. We have a motion to go in camera. All those in favour?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.