Health Committee on March 21st, 2022

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, I hear the focus on a safe supply. That's something that I believe is welcomed from a health perspective. However, it's not the only component of the solution. Health Canada's own expert task force reported last July that, yes, a safer supply is an important component, but it also emphasized decriminalization and record expungement.

Do you accept these recommendations, and will you implement them?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

As you know, as in the journey with cannabis, decriminalization still means that people go to the street to get their drugs, and they are still dying. I am focused on getting a safer supply to the people using drugs.

My father was a police officer before the Second World War, and until the day he died at 93, he thought that prohibition didn't work. I come from a certain point of view on this, but this is a journey, and we're going to have to have evidence-based approaches to keep people safe with the proper process and the proper evidence.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do you disagree that there is evidence suggesting decriminalization works?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's your time, Mr. Bachrach, but you will get another chance.

Next we have Dr. Ellis, for five minutes.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the ministers for attending today at the Standing Committee on Health.

I'd like to begin with the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions. In numbers, Minister, could you tell us the cost of the Wellness Together Canada portal on a per patient basis?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Maybe I can go to the official. I don't have it broken down per patient, but I do know that well over 2.3 million people have used that portal over the last while. The evaluations have been extremely positive.

The provinces and territories are very helpful, but it has—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

That's great. That's terrific.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

—taken the pressure off their system.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Minister, I am asking very pointed questions. I'd appreciate it if you would just answer them as such.

If you could—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Just a minute—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—I would really like those—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

The cost per patient depends on how many people use it. The more people use it, the less the cost is.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Chair....

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Minister, we're going to endeavour to have the questions and the answers be roughly the same length. I think Mr. Ellis has moved on. I'm sure you'll get a chance to elaborate.

Go ahead, Dr. Ellis.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm wondering if the minister could table those answers to this committee, please. It's very important. I appreciate that.

To the Minister of Health, I'm having difficulty here, sir, understanding in my own mind.... You suggested that Canadians know what to do with respect to mandates, and I think Canadians know what to do. However, sir, we've heard from both you and Dr. Tam that the answer as to why federal mandates continue is complicated. I find it quite shocking that there's not an answer to be given and that it's much too complex for the health committee and Canadians to understand.

I guess what I have heard from Dr. Tam is that there are perhaps worldwide issues that play into that. Could you please, sir, give us the plan for the Canadian part of that? What are the metrics and benchmarks for Canadians? Canadians want an answer, and I guess that's why we continue to ask this question.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'll give you a couple of numbers, which will broaden the discussion, perhaps.

Yesterday, there were probably around 20,000 new cases of COVID-19. Past estimates of the rates of long COVID among infected Canadians are between 10% and 30%. We don't know with omicron exactly, but 10% to 30% of people infected by COVID end up with long COVID. That is a very significant economic and social cost for which there is obviously little precise value when it comes to dollars, but it's a big thing.

Another number is $23,000. That's the average cost per hospitalization due to COVID-19. Again, costs are something. It's not enough, but it gives you an example of the types of numbers and people impacted, which we need to consider.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To the Minister of Health, again, sir, are you suggesting that post-acute COVID syndrome is the reason we will continue federal mandates and keep federal employees off work?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Another number is 59. Yesterday we had 59 people die of COVID-19. What's the value of those numbers of lives being lost to COVID-19?

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Minister. I understand that there appears not to be an answer.

Can you tell me, sir, the number of federal employees currently off work because of federal mandates?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The Treasury Board Secretariat would know precisely the number, but about 99% of public servants have been vaccinated, which I think is a signal that public servants care about their health and the health of their colleagues.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Chair, thank you.

I didn't ask how many people were vaccinated. I asked for the number of federal government employees who are off work due to federal mandates, not how many people are immunized. I get that part.

How many people are off work? What is the number?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

For a good answer, which I think you deserve, you'll need to ask the Treasury Board officials to know exactly how many of the 1% remaining.... There are all sorts of reasons; perhaps they have been partially vaccinated and are looking forward to a second dose.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have one final question for the Minister of Health.

Is it true, sir, that Medicago, in which the federal government invested $173 million, is one-third owned by Philip Morris, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I wouldn't know the precise percentage, but obviously we are proud of having the first Canadian company produce not only a vaccine, but a vaccine with a technology that is not seen elsewhere in the world.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's funded by a tobacco company.

Thank you, sir.