Health Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Next we have Ms. Sidhu for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Perrin about misinformation.

Mr. Perrin, my question is about the deliberate political strategy of some post-truth populist politicians. We know some post-truth populist politicians south of the border and in our country are spreading misinformation for electoral gains and fundraising.

Do you have any evidence or numbers to share with this committee on how misinformation impacts the lives of Canadians?

[Prof. Benjamin Perrin]

That's not an area I specifically study, but I can comment on what I know in the context of this committee's work on the unregulated drug crisis.

First off, generally, we know misinformation spreads more rapidly than truth. Likewise, corrections or responses are also very slow in coming, if at all. What most concerns me is seeing a persistent and repeated pattern of misinformation and lies being spread by the current leader of the official opposition, who seeks to become the next leader of our country on this issue. It is deeply repugnant, during a public health emergency that is killing tens of thousands of Canadians, that there would be any dispute, let alone the deliberate spreading of misinformation about the proximate cause of that.

We know from every available source what the cause of the toxic drug crisis is. It is illicit drugs made by organized crime, full stop. There are reasons people take drugs. There are different pathways we could take with policy. However, if we can't even agree on the problem, we're never going to get to saving lives. I think that is the starting point for this committee's work: Do the members of this committee agree that's the problem? The second is: What's the objective? Is the objective to save lives, or is it to follow the polls?

There is a clear correlation between policies that are not evidence-based but which poll very well, such as cracking down on people who use drugs with forced treatment, and that result in increased deaths, according to the research.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Do you agree that misinformation costs lives or impacts the health of Canadians?

[Prof. Benjamin Perrin]

Misinformation on a pressing public health issue like this absolutely is killing Canadians. It is fomenting opposition to what we know to be life-saving medical interventions, things like supervised consumption sites.

I think it's incredibly disingenuous for one of your colleagues on the committee to claim, without being very clear, that it's part of a tool box, whether the Conservative Party supports it or not. If that's the case, I'd like to hear from Mr. Poilievre. I challenge Mr. Poilievre to stand up in the House of Commons tomorrow or at a public event and state, “I support supervised consumption sites, period.” That's a simple sentence. Is that his policy or not?

We're not here to play games. Lives are at stake, and Canadians have a right to know.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

We see many biased political pages spreading misinformation online. The Government of Canada had a similar issue during the pandemic, where we had to use advertising and work with local journalists to provide accurate information.

What approach would you recommend to this committee on combatting this type of information, which is misinformation, when it comes to addictions?

[Prof. Benjamin Perrin]

There's a role the media has to play. There's a role that politicians have to play.

Ultimately, we're in a climate that's unlike any I've experienced before. I remember the days when if you had facts and credible evidence to support a policy, that would persuade people. We're living in a post-truth world. It's very difficult and frustrating for those of us who are concerned about facts and truth, but I think we have to continue.

The people who are most impacted by this need to be at the table. We need to hear from them. I don't know—I've looked at it a little bit—about the committee's witness list, but I strongly encourage the committee to hear from more people with lived experience. There are 400,000 Canadians who have gone to supervised consumption sites, over 5,000 Canadians here just in B.C., who have relied on a regulated alternative to the toxic criminal drug supply. Those are the folks who the committee needs to hear from. They will give you the evidence you need to hear.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

My next question is for Dr. Nosyk.

On the shared jurisdictions, such as public safety, this committee had important testimony from law enforcement agencies in B.C. about the tools they require from provinces. We know municipalities are in charge of local bylaws.

What recommendations can you give to the committee on working with provinces, like B.C., and municipalities to respond to this crisis?

[Dr. Bohdan Nosyk]

I think it's collaboration across jurisdictions, across different sections of government. This isn't something the public health sector can solve on its own. We need collaboration with law enforcement. We need collaboration with housing and the ministries of child and family development. This isn't something we can tackle alone in the space of public health.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Dr. Nosyk.

Thank you, Ms. Sidhu.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Jutras, given the toxic and lethal drug crisis, we have to be there for people who are dealing with addiction. That is a constant that we are seeing. Help has to be available when they need it. What should we focus on as an overall approach to more effectively help those people?

[Catherine Jutras]

We certainly have to listen to them. That is the foundation because individuals have different life stories. They are not all at the same stage in their lives, and they do not all have the same needs and goals. So we have to listen to them, consider them as experts on their own lives, but not necessarily try to place them somewhere or dictate a recovery path for them. We have to listen to the person.

There is an interesting document that we use a lot in street work, roughly translated as Street Work: From the Spoken Word to the Written. This document says that if we make arrangements for the margins, the margins will make other arrangements. There are in fact always margins. From what I have seen, people cannot be forced to live entirely in a community. The vision put forward is instead to create bridges between the margins and the rest of the community so there are channels.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

We should not impose a specific approach, but rather we have to see—

[Catherine Jutras]

We have to offer a choice.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay.

We have talked a lot about safe supply, but isn't supervised housing also an approach to harm reduction? It isn't a miracle solution, but it can help stabilize use and gradually improve quality of life.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Thériault, I understand the witness has a connection problem. In any case, your time is up.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Chair, if Ms. Jutras comes back online, we could give her—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We have to wait for the technical issue to be fixed first.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay. If she comes back online, we could give her the chance to answer, if the members of the committee agree.

In the meantime, you can go to the next person. We will use the 30 seconds later on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay.

Next is Mr. Johns, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Earlier I cited that the B.C. First Nations Health Authority, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, our chief medical health officer of British Columbia, Dr. Bonnie Henry, the chief coroner of B.C., the expert task force on substance use, the former chief medical health officer, Perry Kendall, and Mark Tyndall are now being referred to as paid activists. It seems, according to the Conservatives and some witnesses they bring, like they're alluding to some sort of conspiracy.

Mr. Perrin, what do you think when you hear that all of these experts....? The question was brought earlier that they're not experts in addictions medicine.

What do you think when they're deemed to be unqualified, or that we shouldn't seek out their expert advice when it comes to addictions medicine?

[Prof. Benjamin Perrin]

It's a shocking, unethical and false allegation. When you cast aspersions in a setting like this, where you're protected from criminal and civil liability, and you don't give anyone you're making allegations against an opportunity to respond, it's a very dangerous combination. I recently watched a podcast on McCarthyism, and it reminds me of that, if you're going to start casting aspersions about people.

There's a process and a way for the committee to explore any of those concerns it wants. If it wants to go down that road, which I don't think is necessary, it should be giving those people a chance to respond.

There is a widespread consensus across different groups of people who work on this issue, including addictions experts, that we need to address the root cause, which is this unregulated drug supply.

You mentioned the BC Coroners Service. I would encourage the committee to not just take that title, but when you look at the report that is the basis for the BC Coroners Service's recommendation for regulated alternatives...I haven't even counted, but there are between 12 and 18 listed experts who all work in this field, including addictions experts and physicians.

It's one thing to say someone disagrees, but to try to suggest that there's something else there is false, misleading and unethical.

Ultimately, in closing, I would urge the committee to please focus on the main concern here. You're studying why this is the leading cause of unnatural death for Canadians, and it's going to continue to go for a long time, unless we begin to address the root causes of it, do the emergency response now and build the holistic supports around housing, addressing childhood trauma, prevention and all of that.

We need to deal with the crisis we have urgently.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do I have time for a very short question, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes. Go ahead.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You're the former senior criminal justice policy adviser to Stephen Harper. What would your advice be to Pierre Poilievre and the Conservative Party?