Health Committee on Oct. 24th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

A recorded division has been requested.

To be clear, the question for you is whether amendment G-1 shall pass.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1)

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That brings us to the next amendment on clause 2.

This is amendment BQ-1, which is being proposed by the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Thériault, would you like to present this amendment?

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I'll read it first.

I move that Bill C‑277, in clause 2, be amended by replacing line 16 on page 1 with the following:

(b) assist in identifying the training, education and guidance

As I already said in the speech I gave on the bill, there's a difference between the wording I'm proposing and that currently found in the bill, where it says that the government will “identify the training […] needs”, and so on, whereas this falls under provincial jurisdiction. This bill will come into force and this strategy will be developed once everyone feels concerned and is willing to collaborate.

That's why, in my opinion, it's better to write that we'll “help identify training needs”, and so on. This would be much better received by the partners, and we'd have a better chance of achieving a positive result.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We'll go to Mr. MacGregor, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'm actually okay with this amendment. If we want to try to keep some harmony and recognize provincial jurisdiction, it's still keeping the bulk of the language for paragraph 2(2)(b). If we're going to force the federal government to assist in identifying that training, education and guidance, I can live with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Doherty, did you want to add anything?

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I would agree with Mr. MacGregor and with Mr. Thériault's explanation. I have a better understanding of what his intent was, so I would agree with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Are there any further submissions? Are we ready for the question?

Does amendment BQ-1 carry?

There appears to be unanimous consent.

(Amendment agreed to)

Next is government amendment G-2, standing in the name of Mr. Naqvi.

Do you wish to present G-2, Mr. Naqvi?

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I move to amend clause 2 in Bill C-277 by, (a), replacing lines 13 and 14 on page 2 with the following:

(g) foster collaboration with national, provincial and local brain injury

(b), replacing line 16 on page 2 with the following:

velop enhanced and integrated mental

and (c), replacing lines 30 to 34 on page 2 with the following:

(j) develop and publish online resources providing current facts, research and best practices related to brain injuries; and

There are three changes here that I'll speak to.

This amendment is being proposed to remove provisions that would encroach on provincial and territorial jurisdiction, or legislate specific financial support. Typically with bills like this, when you're creating guidelines, it is important to create the framework. When the framework is created, then you determine the needs of the funding, what kind of funding is needed in what amount. Then that funding, of course, through the usual process of approving funding through Treasury Board, etc., is approved.

There are a few examples. Most recently, that was the process that was followed with, for example, the firefighter health bill that MP Romanado brought forward. There was the framework on autism, I think brought forward by MP Lake, where a very similar process was followed. The diabetes strategy that MP Sidhu brought forward was done in a similar way. This is keeping it very much aligned with the practice that has been pursued in these types of bills.

The other change that's being proposed in paragraph 2(2)(g) is to remove the requirement, as I mentioned, around the financial support so that we can determine what's needed.

Additionally, we are proposing that we amend paragraph 2(2)(j) to remove reference to maintaining a national website in collaboration with Brain Injury Canada. The purpose behind this is that it's highly unusual to indicate or highlight one organization, as is the case here with Brain Injury Canada. It's simply from the perspective of what if, some years from now, Brain Injury Canada does not exist, or they change their name, or they amalgamate with another organization? It's probably more prudent to make reference to organizations that deal with brain injury in a more general way so that we don't run into a situation where the legislation feels obsolete, or does not speak to what the reality is, or highlights just one specific entity. The attempt in this amendment is to remove a specific reference to Brain Injury Canada and make the language more general in terms of organizations that work in that space.

Lastly, we're proposing that a national website be replaced with online resources. Again, it's to make the language more inclusive so that there could be flexibility on all kinds of resources, including a website, of course, that could provide the information that has been referenced to.

Once again, I want to say that I've spoken to Mr. MacGregor about these changes. We've had a discussion around that and around the reasons these amendments are being proposed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have submitted a subamendment to this amendment to the clerk, so I'll give the signal for that to start being distributed to committee members.

Before I read the subamendment, I want to address the arguments that Mr. Naqvi made.

We have checked with legislative counsel and the original drafters. In their response, they said paragraph 2(2)(g) “is drafted such that the government would not be legally bound to providing financial support. The bill provides that the Minister of Health must develop a strategy that sets out measures designed to provide financial support. It's akin to requiring the minister to make a plan to do X, but not making the minister actually do X. If there was such a binding requirement on the government to fund, the legislative clerks would have concluded that the bill required a royal recommendation.” For that reason, my subamendment....

Before I move to the subamendment, I agree with the concerns that were raised about naming Brain Injury Canada. Therefore, in the subamendment I submitted to the clerk, I am simply moving that we delete both (a) and (b) in amendment G-2, and then (c) would be replaced with language that says “develop, publish and maintain online resources providing current facts, research and best practices related to brain injuries; and”. “Maintain” is the key change.

I'm essentially moving to remove two-thirds of the amendment in G-2, but keeping the change identified in (c).

I'll conclude there, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The subamendment is in order, except that it has not yet been translated into French, so I think the appropriate measure would be to suspend until we have a French version and then we will begin the debate on the subamendment.

The meeting is suspended for five minutes.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I call the meeting back to order. We're now back in session.

You should have now in your email inboxes the subamendment in both official languages.

I have Ms. Goodridge and Mr. Doherty on the speakers list, so I recognize Ms. Goodridge on the subamendment, please.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this is a very common-sense subamendment. It actually addresses the concern I brought to Mr. MacGregor at the end of his meeting. I think he did a spectacular job of developing a solution. I think this is absolutely great, and I urge everyone to vote for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, with regard to Mr. Naqvi's comment, I too had the same concern about a private member's bill that had financial ramifications for the responsibilities of the government. I take Mr. MacGregor's comment and understand it, and I would vote in favour of the subamendment as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Is there any further discussion on the subamendment proposed by Mr. MacGregor?

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I want to make sure I understand. When we talk about deleting point (a), are we talking about the wording of the amendment or the wording of the bill?

[Jean-François Pagé, Legislative Clerk]

This is point (a) of amendment G-2.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

All right.

If we delete what is associated with paragraph (b) in the bill from amendment G-2, what will happen to my amendment?

[Jean-François Pagé]

We're talking about point (b) here, which is part of the amendment. It's not paragraph (b) of the bill.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

All right, that's fine. I understand. So, in paragraph 2(2)(j) proposed in the amendment, the subamendment would simply replace “élaborer et offrir” with “élaborer, offrir et maintenir”.

That's perfect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Are there any other comments or questions?

I see none. Are we ready for the question on the subamendment?

It appears to be unanimous.

(Subamendment agreed to)

Now we move to amendment G-2 as amended.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Chair, could we read the amendment in French, so we know what it looks like now that it's been amended?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes.