Health Committee on Oct. 29th, 2024

[Linsey Hollett]

We have statistics on what we found of a variety of natures that were of very serious concern to us. I can certainly provide some data in that respect. I do not have a number specific to feces.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I find that very concerning, and I would suggest our industry folks would find it very concerning that the minister went on at length about rat feces, urine, lead, fibreglass and all kinds of other incredibly specific things, but when you look at that, you're telling me you don't have any evidence to say that is actually true.

[Linsey Hollett]

No, that is not true. We have evidence. We have been undertaking proactive inspections of facilities in this industry.

I want to underline that we have very compliant players in this industry, but, for example, in one year, after undertaking proactive inspections, we found that 42% of sites had non-compliance or conditions that were of serious concern for us.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hollett.

Again, I'm asking very specific questions here, sadly, on behalf of an industry that, again, contributes $13.2 billion to Canada's GDP and creates 92,000 jobs. Approximately 70% to 90% are female entrepreneurs in small and medium-sized businesses.

We just had a minister here, in his bombast and utter foolishness, suggesting there were factories full of rat feces and urine, and you're saying you can't even tell me how many of these factories...or if it's even actually true.

[Linsey Hollett]

I can say that we have seen feces and urine in sites. Exactly how many, I can endeavour to find out. I do not know the exact number. I do think the example the minister was given was an attempt to illustrate the high bar where we would want to use a tool like mandatory recall. It would be in very exceptional circumstances.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

With all due respect, of course, that's the expectation that folks would have. You would expect.... I suspect, in your own home, that you don't want any rat feces or urine. That sometimes may happen. That doesn't mean that you're a bad person or that you're unclean, etc.

I agree with the fact that the recall power would be very important. Once again, with all due respect, I have asked this now the third or perhaps the fourth time, and the minister quoted these things very specifically. What you're telling me is, “Well, I think it existed, but I can't tell you how many times or how many places of manufacture were actually affected by it.” You can't give us a number. Is that true?

[Linsey Hollett]

With all due respect, I did not say “I think”. We have had instances.

How many? I would want to go back to my team and look at inspection reports. I do not want to give you an inaccurate number. We have found these problems on site. There is no “I think” or confusion on that point.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Right. You have these reports, so we would expect you to table them to this committee by Friday.

[Linsey Hollett]

I will talk to my team about the contents of an inspection report, including such things as confidential business information. I will table whatever we are able to table.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I guess, once again, we're back to this issue of production of documents, aren't we?

It is my understanding, of course, that we're actually here to shed some light on things. We're not here, much as Dr. Sharma did last time, to make some wild allegations. Again, what we were told, when we asked for those documents to be tabled, was to go find them ourselves. That is when the industry, of course, used the esteemed company Deloitte to create a report to suggest how many injuries actually happened or, as Dr. Sharma would have suggested, the hundreds of deaths.

That being said, once again, you're stonewalling a committee that is asking you for documents. You have never actually said, “Yes, I will provide those.” Just tell me. Provide those reports, please. Give a simple answer, yes or no. Table them here to this committee.

[Linsey Hollett]

There is no attempt to stonewall. I will provide whatever I can. In fact, I have already asked my team to start working on that.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Once again, we hear this language, “I'll provide what I can.” Provide the reports on, as the minister states—

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—the factories full of feces. This is ridiculous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We have a point of order from Mr. Naqvi.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I don't understand how Mr. Ellis feels that he is effective—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I don't think this is a point of order, Chair. This is just a—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'd like to hear it, and then I'll decide.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

—by being rude and by taking a belligerent tone to really hard-working members of the public service. They are doing their jobs. They are not partisan actors in this endeavour. They are subject matter experts who are here to assist this committee to have thoughtful deliberation. I don't think attacking them in the manner in which Mr. Ellis is doing right now, and has done in the past, really helps any one of us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

Although I agree with you, it isn't a valid point of order. If that's the way Dr. Ellis wants to comport himself, it's not against the rules of Parliament or the rules of procedure.

Dr. Ellis, you have 30 seconds.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

When trying to get answers on behalf of Canadians, I don't think it is inappropriate.

I'll turn the rest of my time over to Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Really quickly, to our witnesses, the minister said that he was interested in a robust discussion regarding this, and I believe he said that over 4,500 consultations have been done. Was the Canadian Health Food Association part of those consultations?

[Dr. Supriya Sharma, Chief Medical Advisor, Department of Health]

Yes. Certainly, the Canadian Health Food Association is one of our key stakeholders with respect to natural health products. Beyond the formal consultations that we have with larger groups, there are a lot of direct conversations.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

So they were consulted.

[Dr. Supriya Sharma]

Yes, they were. This is the department and the deputy minister, and then individual consultations as well.