Health Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Mr. Thériault.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

The interpreters don't have the motions, and that's a problem.

Could they be provided to them?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We're fixing the problem.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Can we suspend while we have a discussion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Sidhu, can you have the amendment circulated?

Are you ready to speak to the amendment, Ms. Goodridge?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's rather frustrating that here we have witnesses who have made time to come to this committee. We're having this conversation on important legislation, as my colleague has stated.

This is a $13.5-billion industry for which the health minister is looking to completely change the rules of the game because he made a mistake and allowed a nicotine pouch to be approved. That was a decision Health Canada made. He has other tools in his tool box that he could use, but instead he's deciding to destroy an entire $13.5-billion industry.

They also know that they have made mistakes. Instead of actually having these conversations and being able to ask witnesses questions, they're deciding to interrupt the very first round of questions to these witnesses with this—which I think is absolutely disrespectful and something that is better than them. We have endeavoured to put motions forward at the very end of a meeting rather than at the very beginning of a meeting, to prevent time being wasted.

With that, I will move to adjourn debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

A motion to adjourn debate is not itself debatable. We're going to go straight to a vote on a motion to adjourn debate.

Are we okay to do it by show of hands, or do you want a recorded division?

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

No. Just do a show of hands.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The debate on the motion is adjourned, and we are back to rounds of questions.

Dr. Hanley, go ahead please, you have just under six minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I first want to thank all of the witnesses for attending and for their testimony.

Ms. Callard, I'd like to start with you on your recommendation. We can take note of it, although it's not specifically related to this bill. You said that Canada lacks a tobacco regulatory framework. Could you briefly expand on how you would see that helping advance the multiple causes that you've described with regard to nicotine and dispersal of nicotine?

[Cynthia Callard]

I worked in Parliament in 1985 when we passed the first Tobacco Products Control Act, and that was amended, was passed again, in 1997 after being defeated. Then it was amended in 2018 and became the Tobacco and Vaping Products Act. That change reflected the fact that, all of a sudden, vaping products were sold—at that time illegally and for a long time illegally. It legalized, essentially, a grey market.

However, tobacco companies continued to evolve the products they sell. As my friend Flory pointed out, smoking rates have fallen. In 1989, when the first law was passed, half of Canadians smoked cigarettes. Now we've made a lot of progress, and it's down to about 12% or 13%. Tobacco companies have found that they no longer can get kids to smoke cigarettes, so they've looked for other products. It's just taken a long time to get laws to reflect what the market really looks like.

We started seeing vaping products on the market around 2009. It wasn't until 2018, until after this committee had hearings on it, and until after a long delay, a few ministers and a few different stripes of governments—it took nine years before we got a law that way. Those of us who've been in this game for a while know that it takes a long time to get new laws in place. We're not talking about, you know, one year or two years. It takes a lot longer than that.

As my friend pointed out, governments have just not been able to catch up to the industry, so we really need a deep think about what we're going to do, what types of nicotine we tolerate the use of, what types we encourage the use of, what types we discourage the use of and what types we forbid.

That's a difficult question. I'm sorry to take up your time.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you. Yes, I only have limited time.

This is for Ms. Hoffman or Ms. Hyland.

Thank you for your testimony. I'm curious. You mentioned the reliability of the data that you do have, and I'm just wondering if there could potentially be under-reporting of adverse effects because we don't really have a reliable data collection system. Could you comment on that?

[Carolyn Hoffman]

Yes, I'll briefly start and then ask my colleague to jump in.

Our position is that there is significant under-reporting. Many consumers, providers and health care organizations do not know the reporting mechanisms to report and share this information.

[Sylvia Hyland]

I'll add that Vanessa's Law is an excellent law. A lot of work was done to bring that law into place in Canada, and we believe that NHPs should be under Vanessa's Law. We believe that reporting and identifying serious harms with natural health products is important. Without that, we do not know the harms that are occurring. If we knew more, we would be able to inform consumers better and empower them better with warnings about the products they are buying so that they are aware and can make choices as informed, empowered consumers.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So, you would recommend better data collection, and the enactment of Vanessa's Law would actually relate to consumer confidence because you mentioned that if you see something on the shelf, you assume that it's safe. This would actually reinforce what the consumer's perception is.

Therefore, it should be beneficial for businesses.

[Sylvia Hyland]

It absolutely would be beneficial for business, especially made-in-Canada business.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Ms. Doucas, thank you for your opening remarks.

There was a line where you referred to undermining stricter provincial regulations. Presumably you were referring to Quebec or perhaps elsewhere.

I wonder if you could briefly elaborate on that.

[Flory Doucas]

Quebec has only allowed sales of NRTs in pharmacies for the past 20 years. Initially, it was the only province to do so. They were not behind the counter, they were in the main space under the supervision of a pharmacist. At this point, the order of pharmacists felt that this wasn't enough. It saw that the Zonnic products were being bought up by young people walking into their store.

It's not illegal to sell NRTs to minors but there was no interaction between the pharmacist and the youth. The order of pharmacists has asked its members to now place the products behind the counter. The ministerial order followed suit and has expanded that to all of Canada. B.C. did the same before the ministerial order.

Should we have this patchwork of regulations or protocols? In Quebec it's not a regulation, it's the order of pharmacists that has dictated that. We would see that being undermined by provinces that would still allow, should the ministerial order fall, products to be sold online, or in convenience stores. They could be shipped to places where those products would be uncompliant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Which natural health products are you referring to?

[Flory Doucas]

I'm referring to nicotine products such as patches.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay. It's important to clarify that, because you know we're going to make an amendment to Bill C‑368.

My understanding is that you haven't explored all the problems surrounding the intent of the bill. Based on what you're telling us today, the current wording of the bill has the adverse consequence of cancelling the ministerial order, which made it possible to better control nicotine products.

Did I understand you correctly?

[Flory Doucas]

That's correct, Mr. Thériault.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Is it an exaggeration to say that nicotine is a hard drug in terms of its addictiveness?

[Flory Doucas]

It is not an exaggeration in current practices.