Health Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Chief Thai Truong]

We're currently working with our community and community partners to address the open drug use that is occurring in the city, specifically in the downtown core at this moment.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Chief, when was the last time your police officers received training to be able to respond to an overdose crisis?

[Chief Thai Truong]

It's part of their ongoing training and annual training. Police officers go through in-service training on an annual basis. Part of that ongoing training involves just that. We continue to work with our partners and medical professionals to help us perform our duties.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

You talked about the collaboration that has to happen with the community services that are actually trained to help people with mental health and all the other things that are involved in a drug use situation. Do you think that police officers are the only appropriate people to be at that call, or are you suggesting that there should be other partners at the call?

[Chief Thai Truong]

Let me just state that when I'm speaking about police intervention, as I've said numerous times, it's only when appropriate, because there will be times when it is appropriate for police to intervene and uphold the law.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to take advantage of the fact that we have people here who are coming at this from completely different perspectives. Some focus on implementing the strategy, others on law enforcement and others on harm reduction. Some are the people on the front lines, and some are bereaved parents.

My first question is for Ms. Brière‑Charest and Mr. Vogel. Please keep your answer brief.

In your opinion, would the toxic drug crisis be more or less severe without safe supply? What can be done about safe supply drugs being diverted?

Please share your views quickly.

Then I'll go to Chief Truong and Mr. and Ms. Hedican.

[Kim Brière-Charest]

By far, most of the overdoses in Canada are attributable to contaminated drugs on the illicit market, as has been pointed out. Eighty-four per cent of accidental substance-related acute toxicity deaths in Canada between January and March 2024 involved non-pharmaceutical opioids. That's a pretty high number. That's why we need regulated drug treatment programs to address a health crisis that, at the end of the day, is caused primarily by drug toxicity.

One way to address diversion is to make sure that everyone has access to treatment. Currently, many people are waiting for detox, therapy or medical treatment. People might wait several weeks or even months. The first thing to do is make treatment available everywhere in Canada.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Dr. Vogel, what are your thoughts on that?

[Dr. Marc Vogel]

First of all, I want to point out that it's not really clear what's meant by safe supply. There are very different programs, as far as I am aware, for what safe supply means. Sometimes it can be just a prescription for hydromorphone and nothing else, and I'm not convinced that this will work.

It can also be almost like a treatment setting and this is where it leads me. I think we should offer medication with opioids as a prescription inside of a therapy setting. This means controlled. This means regularly overseen by a doctor. This means a therapeutic context. This means a relationship with patients and providers. I think it should not be apart from therapy.

I heard that hydromorphone is used as currency to get fentanyl. Ms. Hedican was saying that these people are forced to sell hydromorphone, and this is exactly the point. They are selling hydromorphone because they're looking for fentanyl. If you want to take the analogy of heroin-assisted treatment in Switzerland, why not treat these people with fentanyl in a really intensive, therapeutic setting so they get the substance they are looking for and probably the substance they need at this point in time?

I cannot comment on your question of whether the crisis would be worse or better.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you. That answers my question.

You're saying that one solution would be to prescribe what these people are looking for, but in a controlled way.

Mr. Truong, without safe supply, how do you see the toxic drug crisis evolving? Will there be more or fewer deaths in London?

[Chief Thai Truong]

Chair, through you, as I stated previously, the medical efficacy and the public health impacts of safe supply and harm reduction strategies are, for me, best left with medical professionals and public health experts.

My concern, in my role in the safe supply diversion, involves just what we spoke about. One issue is that individuals in the program—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

We understand that part. We've heard from other witnesses before you.

Would you be for or against what Dr. Vogel just proposed? According to him, there would be no safe supply diversion if people got prescriptions for what they're looking for in the first place. Would you be opposed to controlled fentanyl prescription?

[Chief Thai Truong]

Thank you for the question.

That decision, for me, is best left with the medical experts. That's not a question I feel I should be answering, where my role is public safety and the impacts of criminality involved in the diversion of safe supplies.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to hear from Mr. or Ms. Hedican.

[John Hedican]

Thank you.

Safe supply saves lives. To refer to the doctor, if our alcohol system was still being supplied by organized crime and our alcohol stream was toxic and killing people, we would have to have a safe source for our alcoholics. If we were prescribing 0.5% alcohol and somebody's looking for a 40% shot of rye, it's not going to work. That's what we're doing with our safe supply. We have to prescribe what's needed.

At the end of the day, we're losing sight of what's causing what we're talking about. It's toxic drugs supplied by organized crime. That's what we need to focus on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Hedican.

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

Next is Mr. Johns, please, for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here.

I definitely want to thank John and Jennifer for making the trip from home on Vancouver Island.

Again, my condolences for your loss of Ryan.

Can you tell this committee about your son Ryan? Can you maybe speak about what your lives have been like without Ryan?

[John Hedican]

Ryan was our oldest son. He loved his family. He loved life. He was athletic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Excuse me, Mr. Hedican.

Ms. Hedican, it pains me to do this, but the rules of Parliament prohibit the use of demonstrative evidence or what we call props. I'm sorry.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We have a point of order from Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, with all due respect, as someone who has lost loved ones to overdose, I'm going to ask for some leniency today. I understand completely their anger, their frustration and their loss. I don't think we should penalize anybody for doing that.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

It appears that your view has some but not unanimous support in the room.

I'm sorry for the interruption, Mr. Hedican and Ms. Hedican. Please go ahead.