Health Committee on March 28th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Again, if this wasn't a bill that had been introduced before and if we hadn't had extensive consultations before, then I would agree with my colleagues.

The other thing that I think is important is that we as MPs bring a lot of information and knowledge that we acquire through the course of our interactions to this committee. Not everything that we know is heard here. Here's what we know. I'm going to repeat this.

In 2007, 16 years ago, the food and beverage industry launched the Canadian children's food and beverage advertising initiative. That's what brought in the voluntary code. That's been in place for 16 years.

As Dr. Ellis already acknowledged, and we all acknowledge—you don't have to be a doctor to know this—there's an epidemic of childhood obesity in this country. I don't think you have to be Sherlock Holmes to put those two things together. The voluntary code ain't working.

Do we need to hear from witnesses to cement that fact? No, we do not.

When Bill S-228, the Child Health Protection Act—I think it's same title that Ms. Lattanzio has put to this bill—died on the Order Paper in 2019, researchers at the University of Toronto found that food industry interactions with government outnumbered non-industry interactions on that bill. They looked at 3,800 interactions, including meetings, correspondence and lobbying, in the three years before that bill failed. They found that 80% of those interactions were from industry, not public health or not-for-profit organizations.

Let's just name the elephant in the room. This bill has been studied to death. It has been consulted to death. Every single stakeholder entity who has wanted to have a say in it has had their say in it. We know what their positions are. The bill has not changed significantly. The bill introduced today is substantially the same as the one introduced by Senator Nancy Greene Raine. There is no difference in the general public, except for one thing: The childhood obesity epidemic has probably gotten worse.

What's to hear?

I'll tell you, the advertisers are going to come say they don't like the bill. I'm curious to hear it if anybody is going to seriously contend that it's otherwise. They don't like it. That's why they proposed a voluntary code of conduct.

Again, if we didn't have 16 years of evidence of what the impact of a voluntary code of conduct was, then I'm sure Mrs. Lattanzio wouldn't have sought to use her order of precedence to introduced this very important bill. We don't need to hear from anybody. There's an opportunity for every member of this committee to question Mrs. Lattanzio, to question the ministry staff and also to introduce amendments.

If anybody thinks the bill is not strong enough or feels that it needs to be improved, they can introduce amendments. In fact, everybody has had that opportunity. I would just propose that we defeat this motion. There's nothing to be gained from hearing from one witness next week, or this week, or frankly any other time.

Do you know what? At the end of the day, if you don't like the bill, vote against it. It's everybody's democratic right in this room. If the Conservatives don't like this bill, if they think that the evidence isn't strong enough or if they think the bill isn't appropriate, they can vote against the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks.

I 100% support Mr. Davies. I agree 100%. The industries have been consulted, and they have been consulting on this bill for the last five years. They have not been left out of this process whatsoever. I just point out that in 2018, the last time this bill was studied, the main thing that the CMA, the Canadian Marketing Association, was asking for was a reduction of the age threshold from 17 to 13. By some accounts, unfortunately, I think this bill is actually weaker as a result of that. You can make the argument that if you can drive a car, you can probably choose to have a Coca-Cola. Fine. Everybody can still choose to have a Coca-Cola; it's just whether or not you can market to them.

We are talking about youth under 13. The process to bend a bit, to break a bit, to make the bill a bit more industry friendly...we've already done that. The evidence is clear. We're talking about kids under 13, not 17 anymore, as they asked for in 2018.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Dr. Ellis.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

I guess the message is clear here, that we don't need this committee anymore. All we need is Mr. Davies and Mr. van Koeverden to give us all the information so that we can simply allow the costly coalition to figure out how we should do things here. I'm not a fan of that.

Again, I'll point back to the fact that we have always had witnesses. I wasn't here in 2018. Quite frankly, I don't have the time to read five years of Hansard to figure out exactly what was said. I understand that Mr. van Koeverden can sit around reading five years of Hansard, obviously.

That being said, I think the issue here is what's fair. If it's fair, then let's do it. If it's not, let's move on and let's vote. I don't particularly want to have Mr. Davies and Mr. van Koeverden telling this committee how to work. I think we need to hear from witnesses. If people don't agree, let's vote. Let's move on. Guess who's been talking out the clock? It's not this side of the House; it's that side. Let's move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The question is on the amendment: that the witness list be limited to the Association of Canadian Advertisers.

All those in favour of the amendment that the only witness to be called at this Thursday's meeting be the Association of Canadian Advertisers.

(Amendment negatived on division)

Is there any debate on the main motion?

Seeing none, we're ready for the question.

The main motion is that we hear from witnesses this Thursday, for one hour prior to clause by clause, on Bill C-252.

Do I have it right, Ms. Goodridge?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

We'd like a recorded division.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We'll now proceed with rounds of questions, starting with Ms. Goodridge, please, for six minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the work that has gone into this, and I think this is very important for the health of our children and for society as a whole, but I think it's disappointing that we weren't able to hear from witnesses.

My question for Ms. Lattanzio is, which witnesses did you consult, and did you hear directly from the advertisers and have meetings with them prior to bringing forward this private member's bill?

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I met with la Coalitions Poids, in Quebec. I met with several senators. I met with one representative of.... I believe it was the person who is behind Ad Standards with regard to the code. I also read the transcripts and Hansard in terms of what transpired in previous years, both in the House and the Senate. I read every single record of every witness in previous years before bringing forth this bill.

Of course, in communities, parents in my community....

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

You didn't think it was important to talk to stakeholders who might be against this bill. You decided to cherry-pick and meet proactively only with stakeholders who you knew would be in favour of this bill.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

First, let me clarify. I did not cherry-pick. I spoke with the individuals I told you about before. When you look at the transcripts in the years that have transpired, you will see that all stakeholders were able to submit—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I—

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Are you going to wait for me to finish?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

No. In this committee, we actually have a precedent whereby if someone asks a question, the presenter gets to answer with approximately the same amount of time. In the first answer, I let you go on, because I did ask you a question that required you to actually finish, but I'm not going to let you continue talking out the clock, because that is not the precedent in this committee.

Frankly, I'm concerned to hear that rather than talk one on one with concerned stakeholders, you decided to cherry-pick, based on previous evidence that was presented for previous bills under a previous context, and not actually to meet with a variety of stakeholders. That is concerning, and that should be concerning for all Canadians.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I think your question is biased, and you are putting words in my mouth, because I did not cherry-pick.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Did you decide to just not meet with organizations like the food and beverage association, or the Canadian marketing...?

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I met with the stakeholders that I announced previously. I read testimonies that had been transcribed and filed into the records of both the House of Commons and the Senate.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

On my side, my office has received correspondence from a number of different groups and people who are concerned, wanting to appear as witnesses on this bill.

Have you had people reach out to your office, similarly, about this bill with their concerns?

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I have.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Have you met with them?

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Via Zoom, I have.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I just think that it's a space where this has good intentions, but if it's not put forward in a way that's actually enforceable and doable, it could end up being a whole bunch of regulations without actually having impacts on what we're trying to achieve, which is healthy kids. That is very important.

You brought forward this bill. It has been well studied, and the work of Senator Nancy Greene Raine was exceptional. I'm not trying to disparage any of the previous work, but the context has changed. The reality on the ground has changed. We can't just read transcripts from five years ago and say this is good enough. That's not how my constituents and people in Fort McMurray—Cold Lake are expecting me to bring things forward.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I can tell you what has changed. The rate of obesity has increased over the years. As was mentioned previously, a voluntary code has been put forward, but it has done very little to reverse the trend in the increase of obesity. Therefore, the issue is a very pressing one. I would hope that committee members would support moving this bill along to tackle this very important issue affecting our children.