Health Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

My team—me included, obviously—follow the work of all agencies, organizations and members of the health portfolio. I receive briefings from my officials almost every day on matters of all sorts, including the—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I'm going to hold you to the time I have, if I could, because I have a lot of questions to get through.

Minister, if the purpose of your intervention to halt the consultation process was to ensure that you were consulted on the guidelines, why have you resisted every attempt to be consulted by the PMPRB?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I mentioned a moment ago, my responsibility is twofold: first, to respect the integrity, the independence of the board, and second, to answer when an invitation is sent. That wasn't sent in that case in—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I want to correct something. If I understood your answers to Mr. Thériault, you think you can't convene a meeting but must get an invitation from the board. Is that correct?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I said earlier, I receive all sorts of briefings. That's important for me and my team to do my job and their jobs.

The second thing is that I must act in a way that doesn't interfere, doesn't put any political interference on the work of the independent PMPRB.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Minister, let me put the Patent Act to you. I'm going to read subsection 102(1) to you.

The Minister may at any time convene a meeting of the following persons: (a) the Chairperson and such members of the Board as the Chairperson may designate;

Mr. Minister, you have the power under the Patent Act to call the chairperson of the PMPRB and any members of the board if you want to be consulted. Why didn't you do that if you wanted to be consulted?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I said earlier, I must be very careful in not trying to interfere with the work of the PMPRB. In that context, as subsection 96(5) says, the minister has to be consulted. Therefore, that's why a letter was sent. That letter has now been public for many weeks. That requires a strong level of carefulness on my part, because I cannot be seen to act and I cannot act in a way that seems to interfere with the work of the board.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I understand, Minister.

The lobbying registry reveals that you and members of your political office met with pharmaceutical companies and lobbyists 15 times during the consultation period between October and December 2022 alone. Why would you meet 15 times with industry and not once with an agency in your own portfolio about these guidelines?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I meet with my partners, including provinces and territories. I meet with patient groups, with researchers. I'm having a meeting today with experts in the medical community. I meet with lots of people who are interested in and sometimes have a big role in protecting the health and safety of Canadians.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I understand that, Minister. I understand and respect that you met with everybody except for the PMPRB. The curious part is that you said you halted the process because the board has to consult with you, but you wouldn't reach out to the board to consult with them.

Mr. Herder, Mr. Clark and others will testify that they asked you repeatedly for these meetings. I'm not understanding why you wouldn't meet with the one body that you are statutorily required to meet with before the guidelines are issued.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I said, I never received an invitation from the chair of the board. Had I received an invitation, I would have gladly met with the board. I must be very careful to not interfere with the board. This is critical to the independent and quasi-judicial role of the board.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Herder stated publicly the following:

your “request”...[to] suspend...consultations for reasons that were...indistinguishable in form and substance from industry talking points...undermined the Board’s credibility and interfered with [their] exercise of a function that goes to the...heart of [their] expertise as an independent...administrative tribunal.

Is that correct, Minister? If not, how was your reasoning different from that of industry?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The regulations that were put into place on July 1, 2022, are very important regulations. They are going to change the ability of the board to bring down the price of drugs in Canada to a level that is going to be more comparable to the level of 11 other countries in the world. These are fundamentally significant regulatory changes. That's why the board wants to implement the type of guidelines that will be supportive to the value and importance of those regulations.

In doing that, they have the difficult job of drawing up—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's your time, Mr. Davies. I'm sorry.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next is Mr. Aboultaif for five minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

The mandate of the PMPRB is to ensure that we get the best and most cost-effective drug pricing in Canada. This is not happening. We pay the third-highest prices in the world.

Do you believe that the negotiation for drug pricing is effective? If not, what can you do to improve it?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a great question.

I would say that we can be optimistic and supportive of what we've been seeing in the last few years, obviously in part through the big challenges of COVID‑19, but this is an opportunity to, as we're doing now, build up the biomanufacturing sector in Canada through investments in Sanofi, in Moderna, in AstraZeneca, in other companies that are going to bring back to Canada lots of the biomanufacturing companies and expertise that we've unfortunately lost over the last decades.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

If the PMPRB is independent and they do their own work—and from the results that we've seen in front of us, they're not—how can you make sure that you influence their position to make sure that their mandate is fulfilled?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a great question.

Again, I would point to the fact that new regulations have now been in place since July 1, 2022. These regulations are supported by all stakeholders, and these stakeholders are in support of them because they know that with the work that the PMPRB will now be able to do, we're going to bring down the cost of drug prices and increase accessibility to these essential drugs.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

In view of the resignations that happened at the PMPRB, how do you explain the state of the morale in this organization?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You would need to speak to people, to members of the board.

As I mentioned earlier, my role is to be very careful. When I work with PMPRB, the PMPRB needs to remain independent and able to operate free of political interference, and that includes the activities and all of the environment in which they are operating.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

The PMPRB negotiates the pricing to get the best deal. The federal government and the provincial governments pay for these drugs. How can we make sure that we're getting the best value for the buck?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a great question. It's more complicated than that. Maybe, if you are interested, the deputy minister may want to add to this.

Yes, the PMPRB is key, but there is also what we call CADTH, which is the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health. There's also the pan-Canadian Pharmaceutical Alliance, which is supported by the federal government. Many other agencies and partners reinforce each other's activities so that overall, at the end, we end up with a system that is supportive of Canadians.]