Health Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Earlier, Mr Davies said that the PMPRB had tried on several occasions to contact senior officials or the minister at Health Canada.

When I look at the organization chart, I see the chairperson at the top. According to the structure—that is your structure, is it not—is the executive director authorized to be in direct contact with Health Canada to request a meeting?

With so many requests, how come you weren't aware of them? Perhaps the deputy minister could tell us. Does he have the answer to that?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I already gave my answer, but Mr. Bélair could no doubt add some clarification and details.

[Eric Bélair, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health]

The executive director of the PMPRB is a public servant, and has the support of his team. My team at Health Canada maintains working relations, and exchanges information with, members of his team. We make sure that we are not working in isolation and exchange information about the work each of us is doing.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So the PMPRB is not just a quasi-judicial tribunal. The staff also do research and handle other tasks. I would imagine that there are also operational discussions. So there's a dual mandate.

When you look at the roles and responsibilities of the PMPRB, it's clear that the chairperson needs to have considerable discretion.

The Privy Council guidelines for departments state the following:

Ministers must not intervene, or appear to intervene, with tribunals on any matter requiring a decision in their quasi-judicial capacity, except as permitted by statute.

So they can't appear to intervene on behalf of any person or entity.

Now the minister is responsible for the PMPRB. He has to consult with the chairperson occasionally. There have to be communications from time to time.

Did the executive director ask to communicate with the minister? Did you get wind of that? If so, why did the minister not receive the requests?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Thériault's speaking time is over, but we would like a response from the minister, without interruption.

You have the floor, Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you.

As I said earlier, I have to be extremely cautious in my direct relationship with the chairperson of the board.

As Mr. Bélair said just now, and as you correctly mentioned, Health Canada officials need to collaborate with board officials, but the work is done at their level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Next we have Mr. Davies, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Subsection 96(5) of the Patent Act says, “Before the Board issues any guidelines, it shall consult with the Minister”.

Section 102(1) says, “The Minister may at any time convene a meeting of the following persons: (a) the Chairperson....”

You're saying that we had to halt these because the chair didn't ask you to consult and you didn't ask the chair to consult. Do I have that correct?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I have an obligation, and the board has an opportunity. My obligation is to follow, as you just said, the requirements of section 96(5). In that context, I had the obligation to provide my views, and I invited the board to consider extending and suspending the consultation period.

The opportunity is for the board, and the chair of the board in particular, to invite me to meet them if they want that to happen.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I might have time. Have you had that consultation with the chair to date?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I haven't received an invitation from the chair until now.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

In the acting chairperson's letter of November 30, in response to your letter of November 28 to her, she said she was extremely surprised to learn of your concerns with the consultations on the guidelines because she had understood from multiple meetings between Health Canada and PMPRB officials that the department was, in her words, comfortable with and supportive of the approach.

Why did you wait until a week before the consultations closed to advise the PMPRB of your concerns if your officials were comfortable with the policy approach?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I sent that letter, which is public and which Canadians and people listening to us can read easily.

In that letter, I invited the board to consider extending or suspending consultations because I felt that my colleagues in provinces and territories, patient groups and other important stakeholders needed to have more time.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Didn't provinces and territories have every opportunity to submit their views on the draft guidance in the 60 days, as Quebec did?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I said, my role is to respect the independence and the quasi-judicial role of the board. My role is also to make sure that the health and safety of Canadians is—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Have you consulted with the provinces and territories to date?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I have had many engagements, obviously through COVID-19, on the importance of increasing access and—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

No, I mean on the guidelines. You said you wanted to halt these because you wanted to consult the provinces and territories on the PMPRB guidelines. Have you had those consultations with the provinces and territories?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I have had conversations, and I believe that the board will probably want to have its own consultations with these important stakeholders and partners. We're all in the same boat. We all want to reduce the cost of drugs—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

It's six years later, Minister, and not a single reform has been put in place in six years. Are you not concerned about that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'm sorry, but that's all the time.

Do you want to respond to that briefly, Minister?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

On July 1, 2022, just a few months ago, we introduced very important regulations that will help bring down drug prices in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Dr. Kitchen, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

The unfortunate part of being near the end is that people have already asked a lot of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Apparently we've received a lot of non-answers, so maybe I'll try the questions from a different angle and see if we can get answers.

Minister, your press secretary said in an email statement that you've never received a formal invitation to be briefed by the former PMPRB board chair, Mr. Herder, yet Mr. Herder stated that the PMPRB made repeated attempts using multiple channels to reach your office and was met with silence.

You've indicated that you've published a letter that you put out there to be transparent. Would you, then, provide for this committee the correspondence and any interactions that you've had with PMPRB?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you.

Again, my role—and I take it very seriously—is not to interfere with the board. The board is independent and quasi-judicial. That is essential for the board to do its job appropriately.

I have not received an invitation from the chair of the board. Had I received such an invitation, I would have accepted.