Health Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The first thing I'm going to say, this time in French, is that we all need to—and I think we all do—recognize the importance of the role and the work done by the PMPRB. It's an independent quasi-judicial body, meaning that it's an organization that cannot…

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

That wasn't really what I was asking, Minister.

I'm talking about the PMPRB's organizational structure. I'm asking whether you have ever had direct contact with the executive director of the PMPRB and whether you pressured him to interrupt the reform process.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

My answer was perhaps too lengthy. So the short answer is no.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

It's no.

I'm still talking about the organizational structure.

Have you ever exerted pressure? During your term, have you ever had direct discussions with any members of the PMPRB, an organization that can hold hearings, and which has quasi-judicial power?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's what I said in my answer to the first question. It's an independent quasi-judicial organization and there can be no political interference.

So the answer to your question is still no.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

In this structure, I see that only the chairperson, in accordance with the roles identified, can assign responsibilities to board members. It can therefore not have any direct contact with you or your department, Health Canada.

Is that correct?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

In such an important environment, respect for the autonomy and the quasi-judicial status of an agency like the board means that things have to be done properly.

You were right to say that…

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

What's your answer, yes or no? I don't have much time.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'm taking about the same amount of time to answer as you took to ask the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

One moment, please.

Mr. Thériault, your question took 30 seconds, and you interrupted the minister after 10 seconds.

There is naturally some flexibility, but a certain balance needs to be maintained.

You may continue, Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a very good question.

After having said all that, the answer is no. The only way the federal Minister of Health can contact the chairperson of the board is if the chairperson wishes to have this contact.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Had you heard that the chairperson wanted to get in touch with you?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I never received an invitation from the chairperson to do so.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

During your term, you never attempted to get in touch with the chairperson, except on November 28, when you sent him a letter.

Is that what happened?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

To begin with, it would have been inappropriate for me to want to contact the chairperson, unless he had set things in motion.

Secondly, the chairperson never asked to be in contact with the federal health minister.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Medicine prices can't be reformed without regulatory reform, which falls to your department. That means that the PMPRB takes action when there is the political will to change things. It has a duty, given its power as a quasi-judicial body, to introduce guidelines and conduct consultations in order to achieve the established goals, which means establishing reasonable prices.

Am I wrong?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The minister is responsible for the regulatory framework. That's why an new regulation came into force on July 1, 2022, to bring patented medicine prices in Canada in line with prices elsewhere in the world

The board, on the other hand, is an independent quasi-judicial body responsible for developing the guidelines needed to support the regulatory changes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

The PMPRB chairperson has two roles. In these, there can be a relationship with Health Canada for governance purposes. PMPRB board members cannot be in direct contact with PMPRB staff.

What did you have in mind when you wrote your letter of November 28? Did you want to curtail your reform? Did you feel this was a way of ending it, as suggested by Mr. Herder? Wasn't it an attempt to shelve the regulatory reform you had introduced?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

For a start, the letter was sent in compliance with my ministerial obligations pursuant to subsection 96(5) of the Patent Act.

I'll ask Mr. Bélair to explain how the board operates and the kinds of dealings it can have with public servants and the minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Is that your full answer?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

If there are a few seconds left, Mr. Bélair could finish my response. Otherwise, we can return to it later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

There's no time left. If you haven't finished answering, you could do so now. Otherwise, I will give the floor to Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, on November 28, 2022, with less than one week left in a 60-day consultation process conducted by the PMPRB regarding their draft guidelines that would help lower the price of patented medicines in Canada, you wrote a letter to the acting chair asking her to halt the process. In a March 21 Globe and Mail article, you told reporters that you had no choice but to ask for this because the PMPRB did not consult with you about the guidelines, as required by law.

Minister, former PMPRB member Matthew Herder stated that the PMPRB made “repeated attempts using multiple channels” to speak with you and your office about the proposed guidelines, but all were “met with silence” whenever they were followed up on. Is that correct?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Let me start by saying that the common objective of all of this, including the other tool that I mentioned earlier, is to bring down the prices in Canada. The second objective is to make sure that the integrity and the independence of the process are supported by the work that I do and the work that my team also does. The third thing is that I have never received an invitation from the board, through its chair, to meet with members of the board.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

PMPRB officials have confirmed that you are the only Liberal health minister, of the four ministers appointed since 2015, who has never asked for or accepted a briefing by the PMPRB on guidelines reform. Why is that?