Evidence of meeting #9 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was answer.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
With respect, Mr. Chair, I'm unable to provide that number to the committee.
5 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I understand that. I'm asking why. Is it because you have the number and can't because it's a national secret or because you don't know?
5 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Mr. Chair, the supply and demand modelling that was done was very effective, as were changes with the epidemiology, which enabled us, working with the provinces and territories, to identify what the national burn rates and needs are, and we did not have that supply-and-demand model in place prior to COVID-19.
5 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
It sounds like we didn't have any of the supplies in place prior to 2019.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Mr. Davies.
Thank you, Ms. Evans.
Next is Mr. Lake, please, for five minutes.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to start with a caveat that's all too important these days to mention. I am pro-vaccination. I've been vaccinated, and have taken three shots of Pfizer. My family is all vaccinated, and I'm glad they are.
That said, like most people in this committee room, I know people who have chosen not to be vaccinated for whatever reason. It might be deep convictions. To use the words of the Prime Minister back in May of 2021 when he said, “we're not a country that makes vaccination mandatory”, I'm curious to know what advice was given between May of 2021 and three months later, when obviously there was a course reversal.
Did the Public Health Agency give advice on mandatory vaccines versus non-mandatory vaccination? Is there any evidence that the Public Health Agency presented that caused the Prime Minister to change his mind?
5:05 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Mr. Chair, with respect, the officials today are here prepared to answer questions in relation to the Office of the Auditor General reports, and while the vaccine rollout is part of the Public Health Agency's official role, we don't have officials here today to speak to those broader questions. Thank you.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
In terms of evidence on the government policy on mandatory vaccinations versus non-mandatory vaccinations, can you get us that information in writing?
5:05 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Mr. Chair, with respect, certainly it wouldn't be our place to speak on behalf of the Prime Minister in terms of the information on the vaccine rollout. That was managed by the Public Health Agency in collaboration with the provinces and territories. We would be happy to provide key metrics around that program.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
That would be perfect, yes. Evidence that shows that mandatory vaccination policy is more effective than a non-mandatory vaccination policy would be helpful.
5:05 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Mr. Chair, if I could just interject, what I said would be available from the Public Health Agency would be metrics around the vaccine rollout program and our ability to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that Canadians had access to vaccines and the description of the rates in Canada.
Thank you.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
That's fair. We can maybe call other witnesses who can attest to that.
I'm curious about researcher advice on negative effects of a mandatory vaccination policy—again, “mandatory” being the key word. No one at this table is debating the effects of vaccines, but was there any research done or any advice given on the mental health effects of losing one's job, maybe losing one's house or even taking a vaccine that someone might believe is going to hurt them, the mental health effects of those things?
5:05 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Although mental health related initiatives are not managed directly by the Public Health Agency officials who are here today, we can certainly say that the mental health and well-being of Canadians is a top-of-mind priority for the Government of Canada, and we're aware of the impact that the pandemic has had on mental health across the population, including those disproportionately impacted by COVID-19, so we'd be happy to follow up to provide specific information in writing to the committee that is available to us.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Was there any consideration or advice given regarding an approach that would not have made vaccines mandatory? If the government had stuck with the May 2021 assertion of the Prime Minister that “we're not a country that makes vaccination mandatory”, I'm wondering if, at that point in time, the Public Health Agency provided an evidence-based approach to the government on how to move forward in the vein that the Prime Minister said he was pursuing back in May 2021.
5:05 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Mr. Chair, with respect, at this time officials who are running the vaccine rollout program are not at the committee today.
If there are questions related to the application of vaccine policy in terms of our border measures, certainly Ms. Diogo could undertake to answer those questions, but, as I believe I've stated, the broader questions with respect to the vaccine rollout program can't be answered today. I would add as well with respect to the choices made by individual provinces in setting their vaccine requirements, certainly we wouldn't be in a position to speak to those issues.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Mr. Chair, perhaps we could make sure that we have officials at future studies who can answer those questions at future meetings.
How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
I will cut off there and will pursue the rest of my questions in my next round.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you very much, Mr. Lake. That's greatly appreciated.
Dr. Hanley, please, for five minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
May I ask first of all to cut me off at 30 seconds before my time is up, so that I can share it with Mr. van Koeverden? I just wanted to indulge you on that.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
I can do that, Dr. Hanley, but I will tell you that it does appear that the Liberals are going to get another turn, so he can have five minutes in the next slot if you would prefer.
Go ahead.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Okay, then I will take it back.
For members around the table, I will take a few seconds to give a quick plug for tomorrow's launch of the 44th Parliament's Parliamentary Health Research Caucus. Dr. Ellis is co-chair of that caucus. The theme is “Game Changers in Health Research and Health Innovation”. It's a virtual panel to be held at 4 p.m. I would highly recommend that you look at your email for the invitation and that you attend.
Next, I'd like to add my thanks to the witnesses. As someone who is in daily contact with either my CMOH counterparts around the country or with Public Health Agency officials, I know how hard you have all worked. I think the public may not recognize the role that provincial and territorial public officials and public servants play in providing that analysis, surveillance information, policy advice, procurement advice and many other roles that enabled us to get through this pandemic with relative success despite the hardships that Canadians have endured. I just wanted to add my thanks here.
One of my questions is about pandemic preparedness as a whole. When we look at, as an analogy, climate change disasters, we are looking at what were once 1 in 500-, 1 in 200- or 1 in 100-year events now becoming much more common. I fear the same may be true of pandemic-level events. I think these reports are very important to help us build capacity in vital areas of public health protection.
I have a question perhaps, through the Chair, for Ms. Evans.
When you look at pandemic preparedness as a whole, and given these reports, where do you think the highest priorities are?
5:10 p.m.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Mr. Chair, in 2017, the Public Health Agency had to work with provinces and territories to create the FPT public health response plan for biological events. That would include things like pandemics.
We had started in 2019 working with the jurisdictions to put in place an exercise program so that we could get to a high degree of detail in terms of testing this program. We were fortunate to have a very robust initial planning conference in October 2019. However, unfortunately, COVID-19 arrived. At the request of the provinces and territories, we were delivering under that plan in real time, and so it was not the time to be doing exercises.
For us, a key priority will be learning the lessons from COVID-19 and looking at that plan as well as other capstone plans, our health portfolio emergency response plan and our strategic emergency management plan, to see where there are any gaps and where they need to be updated. Further, I would say that we are working in concert with our key partners across the federal government, including with Public Safety, the Canadian Armed Forces and Indigenous Services Canada.
We agree. We expect that in relation to climate change we're going to be seeing more natural disasters. We also need to keep our eye on the pandemic response, so it's incumbent on all of us to look to see what the upstream activities are that we could do, working with the jurisdictions, including municipalities as well as indigenous communities, to both prepare and to mitigate the impacts of emergencies, including pandemics.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you. That's very helpful.
Following on the questions on GPHIN and signals and risk assessment, I have a question perhaps for Mr. Allison.
Especially in the early days of the pandemic, when the risk was really portrayed as low for quite a long time, what metrics were applied to risk assessment, and how do you think we can learn from assessing the risk of what turned out to be a highly-infectious and rapidly-evolving virus with wide geographic spread?
We certainly don't want to overcall risk, but we don't want to under-call it either. I'm really interested in your thinking as we move towards the CIRA, the Centre for Integrated Risk Assessment. What are your thoughts are on the metrics and how much we have learned?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Answer as briefly and succinctly as you can, please, Ms. Evans or Mr. Allison.