Health Committee on Dec. 4th, 2023

[Jennifer Saxe]

There were many concerns, and the Canadian government expressed concern, absolutely. There were concerns.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay, thanks.

Tell me this, then. Why is it a good thing that the Canadian government is now giving people 30 tablets of eight milligrams of hydromorphone for free?

[Jennifer Saxe]

The Canadian government is investing in certain programs that include prescribed pharmaceutical alternatives as one of a suite of measures.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm aware of what they're doing. I'm just trying to get you to answer the parallel. It's quite obvious that when Purdue Pharma did it for money, it created a public health emergency. When the government gives these drugs away for free, we think it's okay.

[Jennifer Saxe]

The Canadian government is looking at providing a range of services, as I've said. Often these programs are part of a suite of services so that individuals can connect with primary health care, mental health services, housing and job training. It creates a connection to health and social services and supports.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Ms. Saxe, all of that stuff makes perfect sense. Giving it away for free doesn't.

The other question I would ask you is this: On Canada.ca, it says, “A few grains can be enough to kill you.” Is that true?

[Jennifer Saxe]

That could be true, yes, depending on someone's—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's on Health Canada's website. It must be true.

[Jennifer Saxe]

Yes, it is.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Is it there or not?

[Jennifer Saxe]

Fentanyl could, in certain quantities and depending on the—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

A few grains could kill you. I'm going to badger you on this, because it says it right on your website.

[Jennifer Sax]

Yes.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

Wow. That took a lot.

Tell me this, then: What sense is there in decriminalizing 2.5 grams of fentanyl? If a few grains could kill you, what sense is there in that?

[Jennifer Saxe]

If I can add, first of all, in the exemption for B.C., it is clear that trafficking of drugs.... That is pure fentanyl, and any trafficking of drugs remains illegal even under the 2.5 grams. When we are talking about the exemption in B.C., we are talking about the personal possession, personal use, of a total of 2.5 grams, which will include other substances that can be cut with whatever substance they're using.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

I understand all of that, but let's talk a bit about amounts.

From some American data—I used other data previously—a lethal dose is as little as 0.25 milligrams. That means 2.5 grams is enough to kill 10,000 people. It's cut with something, so let's cut it in half. That's 5,000 people. Let's cut it in half again, and that's 2,500. Let's cut it again, it's 1,250 people. That one person is allowed to carry.... Is that appropriate?

It's a simple question. Is it appropriate or not?

[Jennifer Saxe]

The threshold used in B.C. was developed based on a range of factors, including patterns of use. From the data we do have, including from law enforcement, a range of factors were considered to establish a threshold. It is a cumulative 2.5 grams. As I mentioned, trafficking even below the 2.5 grams remains illegal.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks. I'm not talking about trafficking.

I have one final question.

We talked about the addiction medicine experts who requested to meet with Minister Saks. They were talking about how this is not harm reduction. It is harm. It's not safe supply. It's reckless supply. It is reckless. It's reckless for people suffering from addictions. It's a disregard of our communities, a complete failure of monitoring and supervision, and an abrogation of responsibility.

Will the minister agree to meet with the physicians who wrote this letter?

[Jennifer Saxe]

I can't speak on behalf of the minister. What I can say is that we are—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Will your department meet with them?

[Jennifer Saxe]

We are happy to meet with a range of experts with differing perspectives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's your time, Dr. Ellis.

Go ahead and answer the question. Take 20 seconds if you need to.

[Jennifer Saxe]

From a departmental perspective, we are happy to meet with a range of experts with differing perspectives to better understand concerns, risks and benefits with the current actions that are being undertaken.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mr. Fisher, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, folks, for being here.

I want to ask Dr. Weiss if he could maybe give us a little bit of background on the early response to safer supply.