Health Committee on Dec. 4th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Doherty, go ahead.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I would challenge our colleagues around the table. Mr. Johns, you've been up a number of times in the House, as have I, over the last eight years talking about this national health crisis that we have. Why don't we treat this as the crisis that it is?

There's nothing stopping us from coming early to Ottawa or doing it remotely, whatever is needed. I don't know why there's a hesitancy to try to meet as early as we can in January, if possible, prior to our coming back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Fisher, go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

I agree. “No later than February 2” does not presuppose that it couldn't be an extra meeting sometime in January. I have no issue with that, if we stick to “no later than February 2”. We'll work with the chair and with the minister's office on getting that set up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay, I see no one else on the speakers list.

The amendment moved by Dr. Ellis was to replace “February 19” with “January 15”. There is a discussion around February 2, but we can't amend the amendment. The appropriate thing to do is to defeat the amendment, move a new amendment and then adopt it, if that's the will of the committee.

There's no one further on the speakers list, so we're ready for the question on Dr. Ellis's amendment.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'd like to request a recorded division, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

There will be a recorded division on the amendment for the date change. The wording of the motion indicates that the appearance of the minister would take place no later than February 19. What we're voting on now is to change “February 19” to “January 15”.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

The amendment is defeated, and the debate is now on the main motion unamended.

Mr. Fisher, go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In agreement with Mr. Doherty, perhaps we could say “no later than February 2”. Again, that doesn't presuppose us not meeting sometime in January at the ability of the minister's office and with the work of the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The amendment is in order.

The debate is on the amendment.

If there is no debate, are we ready for the question? The question is that the motion be amended by deleting “February 19” and replacing it with “February 2”.

(Amendment agreed to)

It's unanimous.

The debate is now on the main motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

It's unanimous. The motion is adopted.

Thank you, Dr. Hanley. That's your time.

We'll go over to the Conservatives.

Mr. Majumdar, you have the floor for the next five minutes.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you.

We were discussing earlier some of the basic facts around this policy of safe supply. Maybe one of the things I could take a look at is that the diversion of hydromorphone to the black market has had massive impacts. What kind of impact did it have on prices that you are aware of?

[Jennifer Saxe]

As I mentioned, there are a number of concerns that have been raised. We are listening to those who have differing perspectives on prescribed pharmaceutical alternatives. We are also looking at the data and we are evaluating these programs, as is B.C.

Certainly, we are looking to get additional information to better understand the implications of how much diversion is going on, what risk mitigation measures we can put in place and some of the best practices. I can note that, in terms of actions we have taken from Health Canada, we are reviewing and working with our programs to look at those risk mitigation protocols to get a better sense of those.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

If we could dig a little bit into the substance of what you're providing here, when you are going to look at the impact on prices, what methodology are you going to employ to find out how government-provided hydromorphone has depressed black market prices?

[Jennifer Saxe]

From where I sit, we work with experts in evaluation and experts in this field to undertake third party evaluation of these programs.

I'm certainly happy to turn it over to Dr. Weiss to talk about some of what is being looked at in terms of the current third party evaluation of some of our prescribed pharmaceutical alternatives programs.

[Dr. Samuel Weiss]

If I may, for the evaluation of the safer supply, the most important questions that have been asked as part of this research are about the benefit to people receiving safer supply. The funding for this research did not include specific questions around diversion, which is more of a criminal justice matter than it is a health matter vis-à-vis determining whether or not people receiving safe supply have improved health outcomes, so I can't really comment on the matter.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Did Portugal experiment with the fentanyl crisis?

[Jennifer Saxe]

Portugal, to my knowledge, is not experiencing a public health crisis in relation to fentanyl. When they put in their public health approach, they were really facing a crisis in terms of heroin.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Did they have the supports in place prior to that?

[Jennifer Saxe]

They put in a range and a comprehensive suite of services and supports.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Did Canada?

[Jennifer Saxe]

That is exactly what the renewed Canadian drugs and substances strategy specifically speaks to, and previously as well, but right now we're putting additional focus on taking an integrated, holistic approach that looks at prevention, harm reduction, treatment and recovery.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I appreciate what you're saying, but did Canada do it in advance, or did it do it in response to a failed policy?

[Jennifer Saxe]

I think we are looking to continuously improve our response, and that is exactly why the minister announced the renewed Canadian drugs and substances strategy at the end of October, to look to the continued—

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I don't think it's fair to suggest.... Let me know if it's your professional opinion to believe that it's like comparing apples to apples.

[Jennifer Saxe]

What is compared with what?

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I mean the Portugal experience and its model and the Canadian model.