Health Committee on Dec. 4th, 2023

[Jennifer Saxe]

The Government of Canada has recognized that the overdose crisis is a public health crisis. We've used a broad range of powers—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You even said it was a public health emergency, so why haven't we declared it?

[Jennifer Saxe]

We've regularly put out that it is a public health crisis and that there are a number of actions, including investments of over a billion dollars that have been made in a suite of actions, including evidence-based actions and innovative actions. That's why we have the renewed strategy to help guide us forward, working in partnership with others. As you mentioned, with the renewed strategy, we really look at investment in a suite of services and supports. There are specific actions that we had. There are resources that have been associated and that were announced in budget 2023, and then, for timelines associated, there are specific actions that have been taken, like the call for proposals for the—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I love all the buzzwords around a compassionate approach and an integrated, coordinated approach, but that requires a timeline and resources. I'm sorry, but $1 billion isn't even 1% of what we spent in response to the COVID-19 health emergency.

That's why we need to declare a national public health emergency, so that we can force everyone to the table and actually develop a plan with provinces, with municipalities and with indigenous nations so that it's a coordinated and cohesive strategy.

When I look at the expert task force on substance use, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, which put out a policy platform a few years ago with what they were recommending, the chief coroner of B.C., B.C.'s First Nations Health Authority and now the death review panel in B.C.—it's unbelievable that we have a death review panel on this issue—they all have something in common. They've all cited that we need treatment on demand, recovery, prevention, education and a safer supply of substances. They've all been unequivocally clear.

Have any of them changed their position when it comes to safer supply—since that was brought up earlier in this conversation—that you're aware of?

[Jennifer Saxe]

I am not aware of changed positions.

We are aware that there are a range of differing perspectives and reports in terms of prescribed pharmaceutical alternatives. However, as you mention, it really is one action of many. No single action will—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The reason why I'm bringing this up is that it was raised earlier.

When I talk about safer supply to replace the toxic, unregulated drug supply that's killing people in our country.... Have you brought together the data of the pilots? I know that Dr. Sereda in London, Ontario, is producing data. The data is significant: lower visits to hospitals, less hospitalization, less involvement in survival sex work and drug-related criminal activity for drug-seeking related crime. This is unbelievable, the stats that are coming out.

Have you compiled these and released the data of all the SUAP funding so that people have a better understanding of how successful these pilots are?

[Jennifer Saxe]

We are collecting data. We are evaluating programs. In terms of prescribed pharmaceutical alternatives, there are a number of studies under way. There are over 30 published evaluation results and some of them are quite promising.

The London study, as you mentioned, is one of them. The Ontario Drug Policy Research Network identified 20 publications and looked at promising outcomes, including reduced visits to emergency departments, reduced hospitalizations, reduced overdoses, reduced illegal drugs. There are a number of evaluations that have been undertaken by CIHR and the Canadian research initiative in substance misuse, CRISM, looking at the effectiveness of supervised consumption sites and of a number of different section 56 exemptions.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Have you thought about reinstating the expert task force on substance use?

I think they could provide a pivotal role of being an external body with experts who could help go through that data and help make sure that the Canadian public has a third party in terms of evaluation of how that data is working, how the policies of the current government are working and how you're doing with your renewed strategy on substance use policy.

Has that been considered? Is that something the minister is considering right now?

[Jennifer Saxe]

The expert task force provided 21 recommendations that informed the renewed Canadian drugs and substances strategy.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm looking for oversight, though. That's a necessary role, I think, in this situation.

[Jennifer Saxe]

We continue to engage with quite a number of experts. There has been an expert advisory group on safer supply, people with lived and living experience, councils. There are various expert groups. We continue to engage with a number of those experts, including in evaluation of data.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

They don't have accountability. There is no accountability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

Thank you, Ms. Saxe.

Next is Mr. Doherty, please, for five minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are a few things I could start off with. I could reply to Dr. Hanley's comment. This is deeply personal for me. I'm not here for sound bites, but I'm angry and I am frustrated. I've been very vocal and upfront about my family's struggles with this horrible epidemic. I've sat with family members of children who are now addicted and in the grips of addictions and also with families that have lost loved ones—young children, teens—to this horrible epidemic. This is deeply personal.

To our guests, thank you for being here. Thank you for the work that you're doing, but I have to say, whatever it is that we're doing is not working. Ms. Saxe, you even said so yourself: Since 2016, there have been 38,000 deaths. Whatever it is that we're doing is not enough. I get that you're one team and our provinces and others have to pitch in as well. It's not working.

My colleague talked about the experiment. An experiment is to see what works and what doesn't work. Throwing a billion dollars at it...and the leading cause of death for 10- to 18-year-olds in my province is overdose. It is not working.

What are the rates of diversion from government-funded safe supply?

[Jennifer Saxe]

As I mentioned earlier, we are working with all of our—

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do you have those numbers?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Doherty, you took a minute and a half to ask the question, and then you interrupted her before she got into her second sentence.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, when I asked the question, it was short.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Saxe, if you have a more comprehensive answer, you can go ahead.

[Jennifer Saxe]

I would note that prescribed pharmaceutical alternatives build on medication-assisted treatment. When you speak about diversion.... First of all, drug trafficking is illegal. We've been very clear about that. Whether that's diversion of pharmaceuticals that have been prescribed for chronic pain, for medication-assisted treatment, or for—

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do you have the percentage of government-funded safe supply that's being diverted?

[Jennifer Saxe]

We are working with our projects to be able to.... They all have risk mitigation programs in place. We are looking at best practices.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I'm just looking for a percentage. If we don't have it, that's easy to deal with.

What is the average wait time to get somebody into recovery in Canada?

[Jennifer Saxe]

There's no good data across Canada, and there are no consistent indicators in that regard across all provinces and territories.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do you have a range? Is it a week, two weeks?

I can tell you that in my province, it's sometimes 18 months or longer.