Evidence of meeting #94 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was risk.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heather Jeffrey  President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Donald Sheppard  Vice-President, Infectious Diseases and Vaccination Programs Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada
Steven Narod  Senior Scientist, As an Individual
Jacques Simard  Full Professor, Department of Molecular Medicine, Université Laval, As an Individual
Anna Wilkinson  Doctor of Medicine, As an Individual
Paula Gordon  Doctor, Dense Breasts Canada
Jennie Dale  Co-founder and Executive Director, Dense Breasts Canada

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 94 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders, although I don't think we have any virtual participants for the first panel, so we can dispense with that.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on November 8, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the government's advance purchase agreement for vaccines with Medicago.

I'd like to welcome the Honourable Mark Holland, Minister of Health, as well as the officials accompanying him this evening. From the Department of Health, we have Dr. Celia Lourenco, associate assistant deputy minister, health products and food branch. From the Public Health Agency of Canada, we have Heather Jeffrey, president; and Dr. Donald Sheppard, vice-president, infectious diseases and vaccination programs branch.

Thank you all for taking the time to appear this evening.

Before I call on Minister Holland to begin his opening statement, I want to remind colleagues that we have a convention here that the witness is allowed as much time to answer as the person used posing the question. You have discretion as to whether to let him go longer. I will make sure that he gets at least as much time, and it's up to you whether to give him more.

With that, Minister, welcome to the committee. You have the floor for the next five minutes.

6:30 p.m.

Ajax Ontario

Liberal

Mark Holland LiberalMinister of Health

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a pleasure to be here with you today again, back at the health committee. I thank members for the opportunity to talk about the contract with Medicago, and more specifically, to talk about the government's action to ensure that all Canadians had access to a vaccine during the pandemic.

Maybe I'll start with global context, where we were when the darkness of COVID-19 first fell over this country. Folks will remember that there were open questions about whether or not a vaccine would be possible, perhaps for five or 10 years. It is an absolute miracle of science that vaccine solutions were found. I want to thank deeply and profoundly the officials with both PHAC and Health Canada for their incredible work during those incredibly difficult times.

In April of 2020, Canada established a COVID-19 vaccine task force. This was a multidisciplinary team of external experts and industry leaders in the fields of vaccines and immunology. They were tasked with looking at the viable options for a vaccine, and there were seven. Those seven options, based on science and technical ability to produce, were identified for Canada to move forward, to try to ensure that, if they did develop, we would have the opportunity for Canadians to have access.

Advance purchase agreements were entered into. The idea of entering into an advance purchase agreement was to mitigate the risk, to ensure timely delivery and, frankly, to make sure that every Canadian had a dose of the vaccine they needed to save their lives.

By their very nature, they were flexible, and it was also contemplated from day one that not all seven would be successful. Remember, we didn't know which one would be successful. We knew there were seven viable options, but there was no way of knowing which one would manifest as that which would be able to save lives, which was so essential to Canadians.

I think it's important to recognize that this strategy of using advance purchasing agreements.... I'm going to turn to it, because I think it's worth noting. An estimated 800,000 lives in Canada were saved. Some 1.9 million hospitalizations were averted, and 34 million COVID cases were averted. That was, again, all without knowing which solution would provide that answer.

When we take a look at Medicago, which is the one that's before us today and was one of those seven options.... This was Canadian-based, and it shared an exciting, innovative technology that used a plant base for the first time. As you will be aware, most were egg-based. This was the first in the world, an ability.... Of course, we don't know how that might be used in the future. It's a really important innovation that I hope will be able to make a huge difference.

With the Government of Canada's support, Medicago developed a safe and effective vaccine. In fact, on February 24, 2022, it was authorized for use in Canada. Now, if it hadn't been for the fact that there were other vaccines that were approved and in the market—and not, at that point, even on an ancestral strain but actually up to date with what the most current variants were—it could very well have been a world where we needed Medicago.

The reality is that Canada was well under way with an enormously successful vaccination campaign and many other products. As a result, there wasn't a need to proceed with the Medicago vaccine. That, of course, still meant that we had to honour that stab in the dark that we took to try to make sure that one of those seven options was there.

I would say, though—just around transparency, because I know there have been a number of questions in this committee on that—that the Public Health Agency of Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada have shared all the relevant details of this contract, as with the other advance purchase agreements. They have shared it with the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and with the Auditor General, with appropriate confidentiality provisions in place.

I would also state that, as a final step, the Public Health Agency has publicly disclosed the amount paid as part of the public accounts.

Subsequent to the tabling of the public accounts, the company agreed to further public disclosure of additional details to identify the company and the amount of the non-refundable advance payment as well to confirm that the terms of the payment that had been met and that the contract was terminated by mutual consent.

I would also highlight that the Office of the Auditor General recently finished auditing the financial transactions of the Public Health Agency of Canada for the third fiscal year in a row and has confirmed the accuracy and the reliability of the financial information.

Further, committee members will recall that in December 2022 the Auditor General published an audit of COVID-19 vaccines covering the period of January 1, 2020, to May 31, 2022. This report found that the procurement, authorization, allocation and distribution of vaccines were efficient.

In conclusion, at a moment of great confusion, when we didn't know if any solution would be present, Canada took a bet on seven options, and thank goodness we did. We could never have known which one would work out and, from the beginning, the advance purchase agreements contemplated that not all of them would. Medicago is one that did pan out but it panned out in a time frame where it was rendered not necessary because of the success of the other options.

I want to close by thanking, once again, the incredible officials who have done unbelievable work to ensure that Canada had one of the best COVID-19 responses anywhere in the world, along with one of the lowest death rates that was seen anywhere in the world.

With that, Mr. Chair, it would be my pleasure to take questions.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll now begin with rounds of questions, starting with Dr. Ellis, please, for the Conservatives for six minutes.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

We know very clearly that this Liberal government has had millions of dollars of wasteful spending. At Issue, tonight, is talking about this deal with Medicago. What was lost was $323 million of Canadian taxpayers' money.

What was the plan to protect Canadian taxpayers in this contract with Medicago?

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

To be clear, the amount we're talking about today is $150 million, and that has to do with doses secured. There's a separate question around ISED. I expect that Minister Champagne will have news on that—and good news on that—soon.

However, with respect to the contract that's in front of us right now, what was done to ensure responsibility was to enter into an advance purchase agreement where we were able to ensure the doses. I will put the question to you, if you will permit me to ask it, what would you have done if Medicago were the only viable option?

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much, Minister. The time is mine and not yours. I appreciate that. Also, the time to ask questions is for me and not for you. The time is for you to attempt to answer them. Again, we'll get to that.

What you're telling us is that there's no protection for Canadians in this contract.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there were absolutely assurances. However, in order to get the vaccines we needed, we needed to be able to enter into an advance purchase agreement. That advance purchase agreement contemplated that not every one would work out.

Therefore, there was going to be a cost. I'm not clairvoyant. I expect you aren't either. Nobody was. At that moment in time, we could not have known which of those seven options would work out.

Therefore, it was prudent to make an investment in each one to ensure that whatever one worked out would be available to Canadians. That's exactly what happened, and it's exactly why we had such a successful vaccination program.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Again, with respect to Medicago, what you're avoiding, Minister, is really that there were absolutely no protections for Canadians here. This Liberal government invested $173 million in Medicago to start with and then paid them out $150 million more and received zero vaccines. That was in a contract that—if I'm not mistaken, Minister—was signed after the pharma tech giant Pfizer had already been approved for use in the United States.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

What I'm saying is that, at the moment in time in which advance purchase agreements were entered into, Canada had a responsibility—I would argue—to make sure that the doses and the right vaccine would be available. If, as an example, Medicago turned out to be the only vaccine that worked—and, by the way, there's no way that we could have known that wouldn't be the case—then you wouldn't be sitting here in this committee asking questions, because it would have been Medicago's vaccine that saved all of those lives.

Instead, you're asking the questions today because there were other vaccines that were successful.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Again, I'll interrupt you, because it's very clearly known that a tobacco company was a major investor in Medicago. Everybody knew that. Surely somebody at Health Canada must have known that Canada signed on to the convention for tobacco control and that this would never be accepted on the international stage.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Sir, I've been called by Imperial Tobacco an “anti-tobacco radical”. I was the chair of the Heart and Stroke Foundation. I was on the Ontario campaign for action against tobacco. However, what did not occur, and I—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Minister, this has nothing to do with pedigrees.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Sure, it has everything to do with it, because—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

It has absolutely nothing to do with the question.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

—a minority position—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

If you don't want to answer the questions, just feel free to say, “I don't know the answer”. It's okay.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

It doesn't appear that you want the answer.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Unless nobody did their due diligence or nobody cared, somebody must have known that Canada signed onto the convention for tobacco control.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Sir, the reason I gave the other context is that I am no fan of tobacco companies. I have worked my entire life to ensure that the tobacco is reduced.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

That's not true. You've actually allowed nicotine products to be approved in Canada as well.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

What I'm saying.... I don't know whether you want me to answer. It appears you don't.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I want the answer, but all you do is dance—

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

If you do want an answer to the question, my answer is that a minority position that did not advance the interests of either nicotine or tobacco in Medicago....

Let me ask you the question. Would you use—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

It's not the time for you to ask questions.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Sure it is.