Health Committee on Dec. 6th, 2023

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Thank you.

What I would say, Mr. Chair, is let's actually think about what has just been said. The member just suggested that, were he in government, he would have extended beyond the powers of government to tell and dictate terms to bureaucrats about how they should enter into contracts.

Of course, they're going to make a point of order because they don't want me to make this point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Just a second, Minister.

Yes.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I guess I'm requesting clarification that the time is related to the actual person asking the question. I would suggest to the chair that there's no convention to say that the minister has the ongoing ability to elaborate well beyond the time allotted per session to answer the question. I would suggest to you, Chair, that it would be exceptionally beneficial if the times for the rounds were as prescribed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Dr. Ellis.

Mr. Perkins asked his question with one minute and 19 seconds left in his turn. With 40 seconds left, he finished his question. That meant the remaining 40 seconds of his turn was for Minister Holland. He was interrupted incessantly during those 40 seconds.

Minister Holland can finish his answer. Then we're going to move on.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

On a point of order, the five-minute allotment is my allotment to ask questions or make comments. It isn't a guarantee. I could use the whole five minutes on a speech.

Chair, I believe you are wrong in that interpretation. That five minutes ends at five minutes whether I'm speaking or whether the witness is speaking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

If there is another round, I'm happy to wait to be asked the question. It seems that they don't want to hear my answer, but I would be happy to give the answer if I were asked by members who wanted to hear it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister Holland.

Ms. Atwin, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll thank the minister and the officials for being here with us this evening. It's getting quite late.

I really appreciate this conversation. I appreciate it for many reasons, I think predominantly because the worst of the pandemic is in the rearview mirror. We learned so many lessons over this very difficult time. I've had hundreds of conversations with constituents about this time and the ongoing impacts we're still feeling in the community. We've talked about some of the fears and the misinformation. We've talked about procurement. We've talked about our ability to respond in the future as well.

I'm often asked about our internal capacity or domestic capacity around vaccine production. I know that the Auditor General's report on COVID-19 vaccines indicated that Canada had very limited domestic capacity to produce vaccines and, therefore, was reliant on international imported products.

Why was this?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I don't think we made the investments that were necessary in the past. I think that has been a failure of successive governments.

I had an opportunity to visit, just outside of Montreal, the facility that Moderna is building to allow us to have that domestic capacity. We're doing that for mRNA vaccines. We also have a facility being built in Canada that will be operated by Sanofi and that is going to be able to produce the influenza vaccine.

I would like, with your indulgence, to be able to make the point that I wasn't allowed to make earlier.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Please do.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

It's an important point, because folks have to understand fundamentally the role of government. When a government is elected and you get the honour of being a minister, you do not have the opportunity to dictate the terms of a contract. That would be entirely inappropriate.

You would approve a contract, but saying that you would get into the details of a contract and order a department how to do a contract and put your hand into the writing of the contract would be wholly inappropriate. I think it is very concerning to hear the Conservatives say that they would not have signed advance purchase agreements, and they would not have made the investments in those different options. I don't hear them saying they would have picked one winner. What I'm hearing is that they wouldn't have entered into any kind of agreement. They wouldn't have listened to experts around what terms needed to be entered into in order to get those advance purchase agreements.

What we're hearing very clearly from the Conservatives is that if—and thank goodness it didn't occur—they had been in power, they wouldn't have signed advance purchase agreements. That means this country wouldn't have vaccines, which means we would have had a disastrous public health outcome. Thank goodness that didn't happen.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

On that piece, how did Canada exercise due diligence on the seven vaccine companies they entered into the APAs with?

Perhaps that would be a question for the officials.

[Heather Jeffrey]

There was an independent arm's-length group of advisers—the expert advisory committee and vaccine task force. They assessed all the different technologies that were available. They recommended that Canada pursue a portfolio approach to conclude APAs. That portfolio, the seven APAs that we did conclude, comprised a wide variety of technologies ranging from mRNA to protein subunit to viral vector-based vaccines and a variety of platforms, including the plant-based innovative technologies of Medicago.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Minister, in your opening, you really highlighted that the decision-making process was really built around ensuring everyone had access to these life-saving vaccines. I think about vulnerable populations across the country. I think about indigenous communities, and I'm particularly proud about how the government responded in first nations communities.

Can you speak to how this diversification of portfolios actually helped us to be able to respond, including in all of those populations that were potentially more vulnerable or would have been more at risk?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Let's, first of all, praise science. The number of vaccines that ended up being available and successful is a testament to human ingenuity, and absolutely incredible. What ended up happening was that we had a variety of vaccines that were available to Canadians, which meant, in different health circumstances and in different ways, we could deploy exactly what was needed.

Of course, if we didn't make those advance purchase agreements and make a bet on those seven different options, which an independent expert panel looked at.... By the way, it ended up being correct, because they picked a number of the ones that ended up being successful. If they hadn't done that, then that means we wouldn't have had that kind of success.

In indigenous communities, as you point out, because we had the right mixture and approval of vaccines, it meant that we were able to get an incredibly high rate of vaccination, which saved untold lives. It's a remarkable success story.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Do I have any more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You have about 20 seconds, if you have a short question.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I'll thank the officials, in particular, for their hard work during that time.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Atwin.

Mrs. Vignola, you have two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, were there termination clauses in the contracts, whether it was the contract with Medicago or any other contract, yes or no?

[Dr. Donald Sheppard, Vice-President, Infectious Diseases and Vaccination Programs Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada]

Yes, there were specific clauses for cancellation.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you. Do these clauses form part of the confidential provisions of any contract?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes, we would require confidentiality.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Minister, why didn't you require Mitsubishi to pay back the money?