Health Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

There's harm reduction. There's prevention. There's treatment and recovery.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Have you had any conversations about legalizing drugs like heroin, cocaine and meth?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

The decriminalization program is not about legalizing illicit drugs. The decriminalization pilot project that was requested by the B.C. government is about reducing the stigma for those who are in personal possession so that they will be able to access medical services and interventions.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

What is your stance on publicly traded companies like Safe Supply Streaming Co. and Lucy Scientific, which are selling stock based on what they seem to predict as a legal market in Canada for drugs like heroin, cocaine and meth?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I don't work in hypotheticals. I work in the realities of this moment—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

This is the reality.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

—and the realities of this moment are that the interventions that we work on, along with the B.C. government and with many jurisdictions across the country, are based on prescriber-based interventions. If the market wishes to speculate—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Minister—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

—that is the market's choice. We are fully committed to a prescriber model.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Minister, please.

Go ahead, Mrs. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Are you committed to no more legalization of hard drugs in Canada?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

We have not legalized hard drugs.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

You have. You've legalized marijuana since forming government eight years ago.

My question becomes this : Are you looking to legalize more drugs? Answer yes or no.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

We have not legalized illicit drugs.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Okay.

Minister, I know we've had conversations—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Chair, do I have another moment to answer on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

No.

Go ahead, Mrs. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

What my colleague was trying to show earlier was that a few grams of fentanyl could kill somebody, yet you've allowed a decriminalization pilot project to allow up to 2.5 grams. Most Canadians aren't familiar with grams, because we don't do our baking or our measuring in grams.

It's a lot. It's a lot more than a couple of grams. It's terrifying that we are allowing people to have free will on this.

When I asked your predecessor at committee what it would take to stop the decriminalization pilot project, this experiment on our society, she said very clearly, on both the public health indicators and the public safety indicators, that what we're seeing is out-of-control crime and chaos on our streets and an increase in overdose deaths, yet you very clearly said you are A-okay with continuing on with this decriminalization pilot project.

Is there anything that could happen that would make you stop?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Now, Minister, you have a full minute without being interrupted. Go ahead.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll start by saying the three-year pilot exemption that was asked for by the B.C. government was put forward after extensive consultation, including on the amount of 2.5-gram cumulative thresholds. I would note that while a higher level was not approved by Health Canada, 2.5 grams was supported in full by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, so this wasn't done without consultation. It wasn't done without careful consideration.

I would also note that the composition of the drug supply at this time is changing. It's deadly, and the substances in it are frequently unknown, even to those who use them. To posit that it's specifically one drug in that 2.5 grams is really not facing the reality of what's on the streets that is so deadly to those who are using the drugs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mrs. Goodridge.

Next we're going to go to Dr. Hanley, please, for five minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much.

Before I forget, I will cede my last 90 seconds—with your assistance, Mr. Chair—to my colleague Mr. Morrice.

Minister, thank you for being here.

Thank you, distinguished panel of officials, for being here. Thanks for all the work that you're doing.

I just want to note a couple of things first.

The Yukon coroner just announced last week 23 Yukon deaths in 2023 due to substance use. Although that might sound like a fairly small number, that's a range of 50 to 51 deaths per 100,000, again showing how this is affecting smaller and smaller regions and jurisdictions in Canada just as much as anywhere else. It's a toll weighing very heavily on first nations communities as well.

Briefly, on my colleague Dr. Ellis's use of the word “experiment”, I just want to say that, really, the reason for putting in the word “experiment” is that we are trying something new. If we are trying old stuff and doing the same thing over and over again, I think someone much smarter than me called that the definition of insanity. An experiment is really determining the efficacy or likelihood of something previously untried. I think that is the idea behind new models, such as decriminalization in B.C. linked with safe supply, harm reduction and the other pillars of care.

If there is a failed experiment, surely it's prohibition. I'm not sure of a single example of prohibition actually working. I would also say that if we go to a purely recovery-based model and discourage the other pillars, as some jurisdictions are trying, then we are getting toward approaches that are based solely on values rather than public health evidence.

In view of my time, Minister Saks, I do want to give you a chance to answer a question. This is around the new substance use strategy that was published, along with the funding. I think it was $359 million in budget 2023.

I want to know a little bit—perhaps in a minute or less—about your discussions with provinces and territories and about how you see building consensus towards approaches that make the best use of this money, the $359 million over five years, and the controlled substance strategy.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

The renewed CDSS is really about what the Canada model truly is: ensuring that we have a full continuum of care that recognizes the social determinants of health and also the social determinants of vulnerabilities that result in individuals becoming substance users. That is why the CDSS will be working with 15 different departments, including housing, indigenous services and others, to ensure that we are looking at all the pieces of the puzzle, including enforcement. That way, when someone seeks help through the health care system, that person is fully supported. That's the vision that we have.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off there to let to my colleague continue, and also to allow you to catch your breath.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Mr. Morrice, please.