Health Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Eric Costen]

Thank you for the question.

To be clear, what the minister described the department doing right now is systematically taking stock of the evidence in the situation primarily on the ground with the projects that we are funding. We have not made any determination at this point on whether the harms are occurring. We are acknowledging that many have expressed a concern. We're taking the concern seriously. We have responsibilities with respect to the funding that we're providing to the projects we fund, and we're taking those seriously. We're working with the projects to verify that they have the appropriate safeguards in place. That's the extent of the examination we're pursuing.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We're hearing from law enforcement that this isn't the issue. They're more worried about toxic unregulated street drugs that are killing people. There is obviously disinformation that's being spread.

I met with health care workers last week. They were saying that this is causing enormous harm, not just to the clients and their patients, but actually to the people working on the front line of this crisis.

What is your government going to do to get the data and information out about the benefits that safe supply has to their patients and how it's lowering the number of deaths and the risks to people who are using drugs?

[Eric Costen]

Perhaps, with your permission....

Dr. Weiss is spearheading a comprehensive study of the projects. Maybe, Sam, you could speak a little bit about that work.

[Dr. Samuel Weiss]

Absolutely. The Canadian Research Initiative in Substance Misuse is evaluating safe supply in 11 sites across the country. It's in the third year of its examination. The first publications have happened.

We're also evaluating the decriminalization, the section 56 exemption for B.C., through this arm's-length evaluation by the health academies and research hospitals.

I think the point that the honourable member discusses is critical to all aspects of services that are and can be available to people who use opioids. They need to be alerted to what is available, whether it is harm reduction, treatment or recovery.

What the data actually shows is that the vast majority of people are not accessing the services that are available and that we don't do a good enough job of matching the actual needs with the services that are available. Perhaps we need a more comprehensive public discussion of what's available through various communication media, but all of these services are—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Next we have Mrs. Goodridge, please, for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for staying behind for this next hour. It's really appreciated.

B.C.'s safer supply protocols explicitly state that there is no evidence supporting safe supply. In fact, the protocols say, “To date, there is no evidence available supporting...intervention, safety data or established best practices for when and how to provide it.” In fact, “a discussion of the absence of evidence supporting this approach” is required for securing informed consent from patients.

Therefore, where is the evidence if this is what is required by B.C.'s protocols?

[Dr. Samuel Weiss]

I can tell you that there has not been much evidence. Two major publications, of course, appeared in January that have examined safe supply in B.C. specifically.

Safer alternatives to the toxic illicit drug supply have existed now for about 25 to 30 years—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that. You answered it in the first 30 seconds. That was absolutely wonderful.

My next question is this: Has anyone in the department met with the Safe Supply Streaming Company?

[Eric Costen]

No one has that I'm aware of.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Have there been any meetings within the department with any stakeholder regarding the legalization of drugs like heroin, cocaine or meth?

[Jennifer Saxe, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Controlled Substances and Cannabis Branch, Department of Health]

There have been no meetings concerning the legalization of those drugs.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Therefore, during those meetings that were held with previous Minister of Mental Health and Addictions Carolyn Bennett and with compassion clubs DULF and VANDU, there was no conversation at any point about further legalization. At no point did they bring that up in any part of those meetings.

[Eric Costen]

It would be very hard for us to.... We meet with a lot of stakeholders, and some of them raise things with us. Following the request of the department to pursue that conversation with stakeholders, the answer is no. In the context of a discussion with stakeholders, they raise ideas that may or may not align with government policy.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Does it align with government policy? Give me a yes or no.

[Eric Costen]

Could you clarify what you mean by “it”?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Does the legalization of substances like cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine align with government policy?

[Eric Costen]

From my response earlier to your colleague, no.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I'm very concerned about the decriminalization and the change in the tone from Minister Bennett to now Minister Saks with regard to how there would be measures taken to stop or change decriminalization if measures weren't being met. Now it's that we have to do everything we possibly can because this is a crisis well beyond our control, without even looking at the fact that perhaps this is causing it.

Are there any specific metrics that could be tabled with this committee as to what the public health and public safety metrics are for decriminalization?

[Eric Costen]

There's the study that Dr. Weiss referred to earlier. There's a systematic study of decriminalization, a three-year study, with very clear indicators and metrics that are meant to inform about successes, risks and benefits of the initiative—effectively, the answer to the question you're asking.

At the time of issuing the exemption, the government was very clear in saying that it wants to learn as much as it can from this experience and that it would be prepared to act and adjust in response to the information that would be provided. To my knowledge, that's still the policy.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Are there any hard metrics—for example, if it goes beyond a certain number of deaths, the answer would be no?

Go ahead, Mr. Weiss.

[Dr. Samuel Weiss]

The study that's been referred to will be looking at the public health impacts of decriminalization on people who use drugs. We'll be looking at the criminal justice impacts. We'll be looking at decriminalizing policy impacts for the general public, looking at the impact on the health service system itself—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

If you could table that with the committee, that would be great. We don't have tons of time.

As my next question, have there been discussions to change the official policy of the Government of Canada in regard to decriminalization across the country?

[Eric Costen]

Not to my knowledge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Have public servants actively discussed with ministers potential changes to the current policy?

[Eric Costen]

Do you mean for the B.C. exemption?