Thank you.
That's it.
Evidence of meeting #8 for Health in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #8 for Health in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you.
We'lI now go to the Liberals with Mr. Powlowski for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
We have a thousand Saudi doctors out there working somewhere and I don't know if they're aware how disparaged they're being today in this testimony. The suggestion, or the accusation, has been made that they're taking Canadian residency positions.
I don't know whether that is really true. The fact that we take them.... Okay, the Saudis are actually paying their salary, right? Isn't that the case with the Saudis? Are we also making extra money on it?
I would suggest, if we are taking the Saudis, and the medical schools have costs, and if they're bringing in income because they're training the Saudis, this might be something that's actually desirable, no?
Senior Manager, Data, Canadian Post-M.D. Education Registry
That would be accurate, yes.
Don't forget, they are actually providing care to Canadians as part of that training.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I know. They're free labour for us. They're looking after Canadians, and the Saudi government is paying.
I don't think that's a bad deal, number one. Number two, how much are we making per resident on top of just paying their salaries, for example, per resident or fellow?
Senior Manager, Data, Canadian Post-M.D. Education Registry
I don't have an exact number, but I know the Royal College recently indicated that it costs about $125,000 a year to train a fellow or a resident.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Let's say you're a fellow in pancreatic or liver transplants, and it's a one-year or two-year fellowship. If we're putting Canadians through that program.... How many people do we need transplanting livers and pancreases?
We get the Saudis to work for us for free. I would have thought the surgeons in those professions would be happy to have the help. Would that not be the case? I'm just thinking about how we rationalize allowing the Saudis to have fellowship positions here.
Senior Manager, Data, Canadian Post-M.D. Education Registry
I'm just the data guy. I can't speak to the rationalization of the faculty. It's not my—
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I guess I did already.
Ms. Slawecki, you talked about the difficulties foreign graduates have navigating the complex licensing process. I totally understand this. I have a couple of friends from a country I won't name where there's chronic warfare. There are people in the health care profession who would like to come to Canada. They're asking how to do it and what the regulatory requirements are. It's so frustrating. They have to look at and talk to the Royal College and then they have to look at each of the provinces. Even for me, as someone in the profession, and with a law background as well, it is very time-consuming and frustrating.
You mentioned something about IRCC cuts to existing programs. Did our government ever provide information, perhaps online, to help foreign graduates navigate their way through the system?
Advisor, Canadian Medical Foundation, Internationally Educated Health Professionals in Canada
Yes. N4 is one example of an organization that lost IRCC funding. It's the National Newcomer Navigation Network. The acronym is N4.
Liberal
Advisor, Canadian Medical Foundation, Internationally Educated Health Professionals in Canada
N4. It closed because it lost its funding. It did excellent work on navigation pathways and support for newcomers, including IEHPs. Our initiative worked with it, and we are trying to pick up some of those pieces to support navigation.
Navigation is a huge issue. You've talked about the complexity—
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Do you think there would be a role for the federal government to have a site to help people get through this?
As you said, there are multiple sites online. You don't know the accuracy of those sites. Some of them are outdated. If there were to be one site to try to help people out—I'm thinking about where we would get the best bang for our buck in terms of federal money—perhaps the federal government should put some resources into establishing it to help people navigate the system.
Advisor, Canadian Medical Foundation, Internationally Educated Health Professionals in Canada
Absolutely. There needs to be such a site. Whether it needs to be developed by the federal government or by non-profit organizations, which tend to be a bit more nimble, I don't know, but there is definitely a need for better navigation of the system.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I'll cede my time, because I know my colleague needs to go someplace.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
All right. That's it.
We'll move to Monsieur Thériault for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Earlier, I asked Dr. Naik a question about the World Health Organization and concerns about how some countries are robbing Peter to pay Paul, as they say. I'm talking about what are known as ethical recruitment agreements.
I'd like your thoughts on that given that Canada is well over the global average in terms of foreign-trained health professionals working here. According to 2021 numbers, we are about 6% higher.
Advisor, Canadian Medical Foundation, Internationally Educated Health Professionals in Canada
I'm sorry. The sound wasn't great, so I may have missed some of the question.
Absolutely. We need to be mindful of the ethical recruitment of health professionals. We don't want to contribute to the brain drain in countries that can't afford to lose any of their health professionals. The recruitment that takes place tends to be from countries that produce health professionals for work outside of the home country. I know that takes place.
Are we exceeding the actual numbers or not? I can't really say, but people should be allowed to move for their employment and migrate as needed. That freedom, the right to move and relocate, is very important.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Excuse me, please. The meeting is in progress. If you want me to suspend, I will.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
I'll go on, Madam Chair.
Ms. Slawecki, the issue of labour mobility was raised. Could there be a solution there? Given that labour is under provincial jurisdiction, the federal government hasn't commented on the current situation in Quebec for the simple reason that it's none of its business.