Health Committee on Oct. 30th, 2025

[Pantea Barati]

I'm not aware of that.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Winnipeg West, MB]

Thank you.

I've said this on other occasions with other witnesses. I have served in the federal government before, and one of the frustrations we have is trying to direct the provinces on direct funding from the federal government. We tend to get push-back saying, “You cannot tell us how to spend the money. Give us the money. This is completely our jurisdiction as to how we spend it.”

Would you be in favour of policies that would direct funding to the provinces? That is, we will give provinces funding for more positions, but the provinces will be obligated to use that money to create those positions.

[Pantea Barati]

That would be a great idea, but the thing is, health care is a provincial policy. I don't know how much of an influence the federal government is going to have over them unless, as you mentioned, you make legislation or push them to follow by saying something like, “If we give you this amount of money as a budget, you have to spend it on this purpose, otherwise we will withdraw it.”

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Winnipeg West, MB]

Absolutely, I agree with you, and we found that on several other policies in the past. It is something that I personally think would be a great idea, but again, we get the barriers of certain provincial governments saying, “This is provincial decision-making. You as a federal government have no role.”

I thank you very much for that.

Dr. Grdisa, you talked about the barrier for nurses. Again, this is on the same theme here, barriers to new nurses coming in and practising. They used to be able to show up and practise the next day, but now it's taking a long time after they arrive in Canada. Are these federal policies that are preventing them, or are these provincial licensing decisions that are preventing this?

[Valerie Grdisa]

Again, because of regulations at the provincial and territorial level, it is at a provincial or territorial level.

Where I do believe the federal government has a role, for example, is that the federal government does fund nurses right now. There's an e-platform that's supposed to capture the entire nursing workforce across Canada, because how can we plan for meeting the health care needs of Canadians if we don't know our true supply? When you think about workforce planning and supply distribution, we don't even know right now. We say we that have half a million nurses, but how many of them are engaged in the health side of the workforce, the publicly funded system?

I do believe that there should be levers from the federal government to the provinces and territories with our taxpayer dollars going through the federal government. This would ensure there's accountability to have the best possible evidenced-based workforce planning and distribution and workforce optimization solutions.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Winnipeg West, MB]

Thank you.

Would you be in favour of federal legislation that actually gave the federal government power to do these kinds of things?

[Valerie Grdisa]

On behalf of the nurses of Canada, yes, we would like the federal government and the provinces and territories to work together to ensure accountability for the taxpayer dollars spent.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Winnipeg West, MB]

All right. Thank you.

I've spoken on this with different witnesses from the medical community. Would you be an advocate for pan-Canadian licensing for nurses, whereby, if you are licensed in the province of British Columbia and you wish to move to Manitoba or you wish to work between both, the one licence would be recognized in both provinces?

[Valerie Grdisa]

We've been working closely with the 23 regulators. I happened to meet with them just last month. What they are moving forward seem like really very strategic solutions. They're moving towards interjurisdictional nurse licensure models. What we need, then, is consistency across the 13 jurisdictions and the 23 regulators. That's where, yes, I think the federal government has a role in terms of harmonization of nursing regulation across the nation.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Winnipeg West, MB]

Dr. Barati, would you be in favour of a licensing system that was pan-Canadian, so that if you had a medical licence in B.C. and you had an opportunity to work for a few days in the Northwest Territories, you could have your licence recognized to do that work?

[Pantea Barati]

Absolutely, yes.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Winnipeg West, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I now go to Monsieur Thériault for six minutes, please.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

When I hear Dr. Eyolfson's questions, I get the feeling that our report is going to be difficult to write. I find it rather unusual to be able to say that the provinces are entirely responsible because this falls under their jurisdiction and that the federal government suddenly doesn't want responsibility for what happens in health care. If the federal government wants to have a greater role in health care, it should also assume the accompanying responsibility. The current quotas in all faculties are enormous. The provinces aren't training enough doctors. The skills of internationally educated health professionals should absolutely be used and recognized. The problem has been around for 20 years, and it still hasn't been resolved.

The federal government implemented federal programs to try to resolve the issue in 2009–2010, and it still hasn't been done. The government even invested $115 million over five years in the 2022 budget, and the issue hasn't been resolved. When I ask people who come to meet us here, they either don't know the programs, or they can't tell us whether or not the money has been spent.

That said, I don't want to start an argument over jurisdictions today. Still, if there's a lack of resources, if more staff have to be trained, then there has to be more health transfers. The federal government didn't transfer the necessary money when it promised $4.6 billion a year over 10 years, while the provinces were united in asking for $28 billion a year. For Ontario, that would have meant an extra $8 billion per year in recurring funding to plug the holes and ensure more robust health care networks. If the federal government wants even more jurisdiction, it will one day also have to assume the responsibility that goes with it.

I'm going to ask the witnesses a quick question. Can they remember a single federal election in which health was such a big issue that it led to a federal government being ousted? Do either of the two witnesses remember that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I would ask the Canadian Nurses Association to take this.

[Valerie Grdisa]

Yes. Other than the three major areas of delivery that the federal government is accountable for—armed forces and indigenous and public health—outside of the COVID-19 pandemic, when the federal government did step up and had an incredibly systematized and coordinated approach to a global pandemic, I think that, yes, it has not been a huge factor. However, perhaps we have to really rethink the Canada Health Act—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay, but can you remember a federal election in which a government was defeated because of the issue of health? The answer is no.

[Valerie Grdisa]

In every single election health is a top priority, but I can't think of that being the only reason for a defeat.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

The answer is no; no federal government has been defeated in a federal election because of the issue of health. The only reason for that is that health isn't the federal government's business. On the other hand, countless provincial governments have been defeated in a provincial election because of the health issue, because it's the provincial governments that are responsible for delivering health care.

I'm told that the federal government has to impose even more conditions. If those conditions are imposed, I'd like the federal government to be personally required to ensure accountability when it comes to the effectiveness of systems, which it's unable to fund.

Ms. Grdisa, you were talking about worker retention, consistency and labour mobility. Let's look at the labour mobility situation in Quebec. Do you think the kind of intervention that the Premier of Ontario has made will help ensure that everyone works together more to solve the health issue?

[Valerie Grdisa]

I can't comment on what the Premier of Ontario's intent was, so I don't think I can respond to that.

What I can tell you, as a nurse for 35 years coming up this year, is that what's happening now is not working. We're the third most expensive health system on the globe and we are in the tens and twenties in terms of performers. We actually have to ensure that for 40 million Canadians, we are managing a health system together.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 10 seconds.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I could ask a supplementary question, but one thing is certain: To have a more robust health care system, it takes the necessary funding and resources. These systems have been chronically underfunded, and now the body that underfunds them would like to impose conditions when the situation is a complete disaster.

We can come back to this, but it's clear that the Bloc Québécois will never consider that adding conditions to health care will guarantee an improvement in the situation when the funding isn't there.

That's obvious from our discussions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. We've gone well over time.

I'm going to move to the second round. It's a five-minute round and we'll start with the Conservatives.

Mr. Bailey, you have five minutes, please.

[Burton Bailey, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a few questions for the Canadian Nurses Association.

What is the current number for the shortage of nurses in Canada?