Evidence of meeting #3 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was election.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Thank you.
We' ll move to the government side. I have three names over here. The first is Mr. Hawn.
Mr. Hawn, you have five minutes.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I have just a short comment, and then I'll yield to my colleagues.
Mr. Kingsley, I do have to express some frank skepticism that the kinds of things that I and others talked about, specifically mine, happened only in Edmonton Centre. If they do happen only in Edmonton Centre, then the people of Edmonton Centre and other people need to be shocked for an entirely different reason, which I won't go into.
We did file complaints or observations with the commissioner of elections. My campaign manager was told by the commissioner of elections that he would be instituting an investigation into this situation. So I would just ask--if you don't know the status off-hand, and you probably don't--that we be given some information on the status of that investigation.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Okay.
With respect to my comment on Edmonton Centre, what I attempted to say was that this happened to the largest extent in Edmonton Centre. I'm not going to say that this happened only in Edmonton Centre. A few other ridings come to mind, in which we had a problem with public buildings being listed as residential addresses. So there was some level of the same problem in other ridings, but there seemed to be an undue concentration of it in Edmonton Centre.
With regard to anything that was referred to the commissioner, the commissioner will provide an update on where he stands on those files. I'm not automatically privy to that information. The commissioner acts independently of the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer and keeps me informed generally about what he is doing, but not on individual files necessarily. But I'll ask him, and we'll provide the answer to you through that means.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I guess I'm taking a little bit more time from my colleagues here, Mr. Chair.
With respect to the voter cards and the statement by Ms. Davidson that people can't take one of those voter cards and go vote--if I understood you correctly--our experience shows that's not true. If I get a voter information card that says I am Laurie Hawn and I live in Upper Rubber Boot and that I can go vote at poll whatever, if I show up with that card, walk in, and give them the card, they don't ask me any other questions. I don't show any identification. I get my ballot, and I go and vote. If I have 15 voter cards, I can go to 15 polls and do the same thing. And that, sir, does happen.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Sir, what I don't understand is how you can go to fifteen different polls when you have the same address. Your poll is tied to your address.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
No. Fifteen cards. The example that I used in the beginning was that of a lawyer, who clearly knows better, bragging that he voted fourteen times for my opponent in the 2004 election because he had a voter card for each of the fourteen properties that he leased in the riding.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I would like that name, because under the statute there is a seven-year limitation for any infraction committed during the 2004 general election. So I definitely need that name.
The issue that you're raising, which is one of ID at the polls, is one that perhaps we could be discussing at greater length, because doing so could take a long time this morning. There are pros and cons to that issue, and I would like to be able to discuss them very openly and honestly with the members.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
But to me, that we need to know who is voting is fundamental. Non-citizens vote. People vote multiple times. People vote in ridings they don't belong in, for some of the reasons we've just talked about.
To me, it's absolutely fundamental that if I'm going to vote I must produce identification. It's very simple. Nothing else makes any sense, and I don't understand why that is so difficult to mandate.
Noon
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
The statute says that you don't need to. If members of Parliament want to change the statute and require ID, then members of Parliament will have to change the law. But you can't look to me to mandate it, if it's not in the law.
Noon
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
As a senior administrator, would you support that kind of a change?
Noon
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I'm not ready to indicate support today. I think it has to be discussed. There's the whole thrust of the legislation, which has existed since 1920 in this respect. Before we change that, I think people should be aware that the change would be a major one.
There is also a whole slew of measures that do exist to ensure the integrity of the process. I'd like to have the opportunity to remind the members of what those are. I'd like to be better prepared to have that discussion, Mr. Chairman.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
I think that's fair. We can bring Mr. Kingsley back at another time and get into an in-depth discussion when you have had an opportunity to prepare for this.
Your colleagues may want to note that you've taken all their time.
Go ahead, please, Ms. Picard.
Noon
Bloc
Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC
Mr. Kingsley, it is always a pleasure to see you again.
I would like to come back to the way returning officers are appointed, but before that, I would like to tell you about something that happened in my riding during the last election.
The chief Liberal organizer had recommended a candidate for a returning officer. The organizer put a lot of pressure on this woman, and she asked us to talk to you about it, because she felt very intimidated by the organizer. This happened as a consequence of returning officers being appointed by the party in power, by the government. It was a very unfortunately experience for the returning officer, and you had to step in and tell this man to stop intimidating voters who had come to the advance poll. A person even came to see me and said that there were people at the door who were scaring him. The returning officer could not control the situation. Since the appointment had been recommended by the organizer, the organizer thought he could abuse the process.
I hope that the problems associated with appointing returning officers will be eliminated with Bill C-2. The bill does not refer to a public competition or to an external appointment process, as it called in the jargon of the federal public service. So how will candidates be recruited?
Noon
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
First, thank you for once again raising the issue of returning officers, an issue which has consistently been the subject of my recommendations since I have held my position. I spoke about this in 1990, the year I was appointed, before the royal commission that was considering this issue. I recommended that the royal commission draft a recommendation but it chose not to do so. I persisted, however, because, quite honestly, this type of problem is a source of immense frustration for the Chief Electoral Officer. Thank you for having raised it once again.
In terms of the process, we obviously became aware of the wording of the bill at the same time as everyone else. We are currently preparing the system that would be used to recruit and appoint returning officers.
The system would rely primarily on merit, depending on the requirements of the position and the qualities necessary in people taking on those responsibilities, including political neutrality. Second, having a process will ensure that an individual's merit is determined fairly and equitably. When I appear before the committee that will be considering Bill C-2, I will be in a position to expand on that topic. However, I can tell you that the system will be based on merit, as set out in Bill C-2, as well as on transparency.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC
Section 297 of the Elections Act states that, “without delay after the validation of the results, the returning officer shall prepare a certificate... that sets out the number of votes cast for each candidate, and shall deliver... a copy of it to each candidate”. However, some returning officers refused to give them to us and stated that they would be sending them through the mail.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I feel that that was very clearly done in bad faith. However, when I have had to intervene, I have stated that things had to be done differently. You know that.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC
Fine. There could also be a problem with requests for recounts, which must be made “within four days after the date on which a returning officer issues a certificate”, under section 301(1) of the Act.
If a candidate receives the results on the day of validation and another candidate receives the results through the mail one week later, which date is used as the starting point?
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Later I will give you a legal interpretation of that issue. However, one must not forget that the results are posted on Elections Canada's website as soon as they are available. Furthermore, we consistently update those results, which the candidates can use.
I understand the implications of your question and later I will give you a more specific answer.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Thank you.
I must apologize. I overlooked Mr. Reid, so I'm going to go to Mr. Reid. I apologize, sir, I didn't see your hand up.
Then we'll move to Mr. Lukiwski and then Mr. Godin.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you.
It's always a pleasure to have you here at our committee.
I wanted to start by explaining—because you actually raised this question, what Mr. Hawn was asking—how a person can vote in multiple places if they've received a voter card. I know you were assuming people would get a voter card at one address. The answer is this.
In the last election I received three voter cards. One for Scott Reid, one for Jeffrey Reid, and one for Scott Jeffrey Reid. Obviously I voted only once, but had I wanted to, what I could have done is this. I could have gone to the returning office and voted once as Scott Reid. I could have shown them my ID that says I'm Scott Reid. I could have voted a second time at the advance poll as Jeffrey Reid--of course my ID shows that too--and then I could have voted at my regular poll. There would be different people at each poll, and that would cover me. And I could show them my ID each time.
I'm not saying this happens all the time, but you get the point. The safeguard you would normally have of having scrutineers watching would actually be absent in this situation. I just point that out because you had raised the question.
I wanted to actually revisit a question Mr. Proulx had brought up. He asked about the number of prosecutions there had been in recent years for false declarations. I'm not sure if you did answer that--he had so many questions--but if you didn't, I would appreciate your indicating that. In particular, I would like you to respond to something I read in the Toronto Star a few months ago. They had quite a discussion about electoral fraud, going back and forth, and of course you participated in a series of letters to the editor and articles.
This is an article in which it's claimed or alleged.... I'll just read what it says:
It is illegal under the Canada Elections Act to vote more than once in an election. Penalities range from a $5,000 fine to five years in prison, or both. But it's believed that no one in Canada has ever been convicted of voter fraud, and our elections are based on an honour system.
I'm not sure if that allegation is true, but I would like to find out now, if I could.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
The reason there has not been prosecution is that there's no complaint that could be justified. There are a lot of perception issues and rumours, and people talk about this type of thing occurring.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I'm sorry, this is actually the truth? I'm not suggesting that--
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
No, I agree.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I'm aware, for example, that you're not even involved in the prosecution process. My question is, is it true that there have been no prosecutions?
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I'll verify that and come back to the committee. It's my belief that it is not the case that there's been a successful prosecution. What we did on the side is agree with Mr. Proulx that we would be providing this committee with an answer about the question he had raised.
What I find interesting in your comments is that you could have provided your ID three times, so why is going to be useful to provide the ID at the polls?