Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Ladies and gentlemen, we'll begin the meeting this morning. I apologize for the delay. Obviously, we have to have this room this morning because of our teleconferencing, which will start at the noon hour. I thank you for your diligence and your patience.

I want to advise members that this meeting is being held in public. Again, we are dealing with our continuation of Bill C-31.

I also want to remind members that at 12 o'clock today we will start our video conferencing. So we have one hour for our first witness.

I would like to welcome the director general of Élections Québec, Monsieur Marcel Blanchet.

Thank you very much for being with us this morning, Marcel. Normally what we do is offer you a few minutes for an opening statement.

Then we would start, colleagues, with our usual round of questions, the first round being seven minutes. I want to just remind members that we have one hour, and if we could keep our questions short and to the point, we'll probably get through more questions than we normally do.

Monsieur Blanchet, the floor is yours.

[Marcel Blanchet, Chief Electoral Officer & President of the Commission for Electoral Representation, Élections Québec]

Thank, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, I was very pleased to accept your invitation to come and talk about Quebec's experience with compiling data on electors who voted at polling stations.

To begin with, I would just like to say that important changes in that regard were introduced in Quebec in 2001.

Indeed, in March of 2001, legislation was passed in Quebec to create the position of electoral list clerk as part of elections staff. These changes had previously been discussed at the Advisory Committee on the Elections Act.

Just for the benefit of Committee members, I want to point out that these legislative amendments came about as a result of a ruling by the Quebec Superior Court in the Hébert case, in 1999. This particular ruling overturned sub-section 137, as it was worded at the time, dealing with compensation for political party representatives in polling divisions.

The applicant, Jacques Hébert, who, at the time, was the Executive Director of Action démocratique du Québec, had challenged the constitutionality of a provision under which the representatives of parties that ranked first and second in the riding in the previous election were paid to collate data on electors who had voted, and the fact that these individuals did not provide access to that data to other parties — in other words, to third parties and independent candidates.

Consequently, since 2001, party representatives at polling stations are no longer paid by the Chief Electoral Officer. The duties of these “checkers” — pardon the expression — are now carried out by electoral list officers. As election workers recommended by the political parties that ranked first and second in the previous election, they are now paid by the Chief Electoral Officer. The Elections Act states that they must make information regarding electors who have voted available to poll runners working for all authorized political parties and independent candidates.

Like other election workers, electoral list officers act under the authority of the returning officer. During the election period, they are trained by the returning officer. That training is based on guidelines developed for them by my office.

When training the electoral list officers, the returning officer is required to emphasize the fact that they must be both neutral and impartial, even though they have been hired as a result of recommendations made by the political parties. They are not to engage in any type of partisan activity on voting day. Like other members of elections staff, they take an oath and swear to carry out their duties in accordance with the Act.

At the polling station, two electoral list officers work as a team at each table, under the responsibility of the deputy returning officer. The guidelines provided to electoral list officers lay out the information they need to perform their duties. They explain how to use the material made available to them. Specifically, electoral list officers are required to compile the line numbers of electors who have voted at the polling station, and to record that information on the forms provided for that purpose. So, every time a ballot is placed in the ballot box, the two electoral list officers black out, on the form, the line number of the elector who has just voted. That line number is provided to them by the poll clerk. At regular intervals — approximately every half hour — electoral list officers provide copies of these forms to the officer in charge of information and order at each polling station, or to one of his or her assistants, who then passes them on to the political parties and independent candidates' poll runners.

I just want to briefly digress to say that I have provided the Clerk of the Standing Committee with copies of the instructions given to electoral list officers. Those instructions include an appendix with copies of the compilation statements of electors who have voted.

The legislative changes that resulted in the creation of the position of electoral list officer have had no financial impact in Quebec. The fact is the compensation previously paid to senior representatives of the political parties is now paid to electoral list officers. They receive the same compensation as poll clerks.

In the 2003 General Election, the 38,000 electoral list officers assigned to 19,364 polling stations received total compensation of $3,541,597. In the 1998 election, compensation paid to 43,891 senior political party representatives was $3,848,087.

As you can see, there is a difference between 1998 and 2001. There were fewer in 2003 than in 1998 because there are no electoral list officers on site for advance polls, inmate voting or at mobile voting stations, which was the case for political representatives in 1998. So, there were some slight savings realized in that area.

In the next general election, overall compensation for electoral list officers is expected to exceed $5 million. That increase in relation to 2003 can be attributed to a higher number of polling stations and higher compensation. The hourly rate set under the new regulations on compensation, which came into effect on August 30, rises to $11.79 from $7.85.

As the institution responsible for safeguarding the principles that underlie the electoral system in Quebec, the Chief Electoral Officer responded positively to these legislative amendments creating the position of electoral list officer. In my opinion, these provisions represent a considerable improvement as regards equity and equality for the political parties. The principles of equity and equality are among the most fundamental principles of our democratic system.

Although I am in favour of the principle for the reasons I have just given, our experience in the 2003 General Election showed that improvements could be made in terms of the duties of the electoral list officer.

Indeed, we noted that there is not enough work to occupy two people in every polling station.

As well, the political parties are having a great deal of difficulty recommending enough people to act as electoral list officers in every single polling station. When the political parties do not make recommendations, it falls to the Chief Electoral Officer to recruit staff to fill those positions, which is no small task.

When the returning officer is not able to fill all the positions, I am authorized under the Elections Act to make special arrangements to appoint a single officer for each polling station. If it proves impossible to appoint an officer to perform these duties at each polling station, the returning officer has to ask the deputy returning officer or a poll clerk to perform these duties, although that happens in only very exceptional cases.

Recruitment issues are so serious that in every general election and by-election held since 2001, I have had to make special arrangements. In my 2003-2004 Annual Report, I recommended to the National Assembly that there be only one electoral list officer per polling station, rather than two.

Thank you for your kind attention. I am now ready to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

We are going to start our round now.

Monsieur Proulx, you have seven minutes. Enjoy yourself.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Blanchet. Thank you for accepting the Committee's invitation to come to Ottawa.

I am very interested in the actual mechanics of the job, as well as the specific duties performed by these officers. There are a number of details that you did not touch on in your presentation. That is not a criticism, but I would like to clarify a couple of points.

First of all, when we — and here I refer to the Committee — made a similar suggestion to the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada, his response was that the costs would be prohibitive and that we would need to have a photocopier in every single polling station. I have the feeling that the people we talked to did not clearly understand what we were talking about, and that perhaps we did not provide an adequate explanation.

You mentioned that the lists are turned over to the officer in charge of information and order approximately every half hour. How exactly are those lists handed out?

First of all, what do electoral list officers at the table use to record that information?

[Marcel Blanchet]

Mr. Proulx and Mr. Chairman, in the documentation I provided to the Clerk, there is a copy of the forms that are used, that are referred to as bingo cards. Several copies of these cards are given to the electoral list officers. They can be given up to three of these forms, which include carbon copies. In other words, whenever you fill in a space, the information is automatically recorded on the three or four copies that are underneath.

This is what our electoral list officers do. When someone comes in to vote, there is a number on the electoral list that corresponds to that elector. So, the poll clerk tells the electoral list officer what that person's number is and the electoral list officer simply blacks out the number corresponding to that voter on the form.

At regular intervals, approximately every half hour — once again, it ultimately depends on what the political parties want — the people responsible for collecting this information on behalf of the political parties or independent candidates come and collect it, and then everything is handed over to the officer in charge of information and order in each polling station. He hands that information over to the party representatives, who then use it for the purposes that you are already aware of.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

So, it's recorded on forms with multiple copies that you provide in sufficient amounts to your officers, who then record the polling division number, based on what I see here. It's no more complicated than that; it actually is very simple.

[Marcel Blanchet]

Yes, absolutely.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Setting aside the costs associated with compensation, do you have any idea of how much it costs to put that system in place and administer it, Mr. Blanchet?

[Marcel Blanchet]

It's part of the whole mechanics of preparing an election. The additional costs relate to the training that has to be provided to these individuals — the training lasts one or two hours, or the time it takes to explain to them what they have to do. It really isn't complicated.

So, from that point on, there are costs associated with training the officers. Other than that, we simply have to put two more chairs at the table where people actually vote. It's no more complicated than that. Rather than having just a poll clerk and a deputy returning officer, we have two electoral list officers as well. As I said earlier, as far as we are concerned, there is work for only one person.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Yes, let's come back to that now. Under the current system, you have two officers who are recommended by the two parties that got the most votes in the last election. Now, once these people are seated at the table, they are supposed to be neutral. Everything they do is monitored, and there are no problems; that's the way it works.

Why did you start with two officers?

[Marcel Blanchet]

Perhaps I should again give you some background as to how all of this began. Initially, these individuals were designated by the two political parties that had received the most votes in the previous election. So, there have always been two people. They were paid by the Chief Electoral Officer, but worked only for their own party. So, the cards they would fill in could be used only by their own party.

That is what led to the infamous Hébert case. This was deemed to be unfair, but that is how things had worked—

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

So, you were used to having and paying for two representatives; you simply transferred the titles and responsibilities, but you still have two.

[Marcel Blanchet]

Yes, exactly. Those individuals were made employees of the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, reporting directly to the CEO.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

As you say, nothing would prevent you from having only one such officer at each voting table. It would not cause additional problems. The only one that I can think of is this: how do you go about choosing or assigning these people? Do you continue to receive recommendations from the political parties or do you go and find them yourselves?

At the present time, the political parties make recommendations to you for the staffing of poll clerk and DRO positions based on the results they received in the last election in that riding. Right? If you had to recruit these officers yourselves, would that be a major problem for you?

[Marcel Blanchet]

I would say no, simply because, as I was mentioning earlier, the political parties have to recommend people to us. They have up to 14 days before election day to make those recommendations. However, every time there has been an election, either the 2003 General Election or the by-elections that have been held since, I have had to make special arrangements, because we didn't have enough people to fill the positions. The political parties were unable to provide us with all the staff we needed to fill the positions of poll clerk, deputy returning officer, and electoral list officer, of which there are two.

So, once again, the institution has to use all the means at its disposal and do whatever it can think of to find people, including placing ads in the newspapers.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

In actual fact, this didn't cost you any more than what you were paying previously, because you had two before, and you still have two. You would actually be able to save money in Quebec if you only had one.

[Marcel Blanchet]

We are already saving money because, at the time, these officers, who represented the different political parties, were also in attendance for the advance polls, the inmate voting and at the mobile polling stations. Now, however, they are used only when the regular voting process is underway.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

We went over the time a little bit, but I felt that answer was very important to get.

Mr. Reid, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Blanchet. I have a great deal of respect for the electoral system in Quebec which, in a sense, has been a model for the rest of the country for the last 20 or 25 years. I found your presentation very interesting.

I have a few questions relating to things that you did not address in your presentation, and particularly people who may be forgotten or fall through the cracks as a result of the system we are considering putting in place through this legislation. I am referring to the homeless and Aboriginal Canadians.

Perhaps I'll switch to English at this point.

Those who might be neglected or might not be able to exercise their franchise.... You've had a similar system to the one we're looking at adopting; indeed, to a large degree, the Quebec system is the model we're looking at adopting, in terms of requirements for identification when one votes. And you've dealt, I believe, with the problem of those who might potentially be left off the voters list, who might be unable to exercise their franchise.

I'm wondering if you can tell us what we ought to do, and what you have found it useful to do, to ensure that those who are homeless and aboriginal, in particular, are able to exercise their vote—especially those in the Grand Nord, or areas where they are very far removed from easy access to polls.

[Marcel Blanchet]

It's important to realize that the Quebec system is not perfect. Last year, as a result of recommendations I made following the 2003 General Election, a package of measures was passed by the National Assembly in Quebec which substantially amended the Quebec Elections Act, in order to make it easier for people in difficult circumstances to exercise their right to vote.

In that respect, we also took some inspiration from provisions in the Canada Elections Act, and particularly the one that allows an elector to vote at the office of the Returning Officer. That particular option was not available in Quebec. In fact, we are seeking to broaden it to allow any citizen to vote anywhere in Quebec, at the office of any returning officer. Those votes would be counted in the riding where they have their residence. To that end, we have established a proper procedure, including the development of computer systems. We are also planning to allow people who are unable to get around to vote at home.

With respect to the Aboriginal population, we are facing the same problems as we are everywhere else. Last week, I attended a meeting with my fellow Chief Electoral Officers from the other provinces and territories of Canada. As you know, Aboriginal Canadians are not always particularly interested in voting. Consequently, we have to advertise to encourage them to take part in our democratic system, because the problem there is not one of access. We do everything that is required to ensure that they have all the information and everything they need on site to exercise their voting rights.

As for the homeless, they generally do not have an address. That is their situation, by definition. We encourage them to register in places where they generally go to have a meal, get washed or sleep. In fact, shelters for the homeless in Montreal and Quebec City can serve as a residence for the purposes of the Elections Act, so that these individuals are able to exercise their right to vote.

That is basically what we do. Once again, we do not have any more effective or innovative measures in place to accommodate these people. Our system works well. We do not receive complaints from them to the effect that we are not providing them with what they need to exercise their fundamental right to vote.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

You have three minutes left.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

All right. In that case, I'll ask...and maybe it is more a question for the clerk than for our witness, but perhaps he could arrange to obtain and distribute a copy of his recommendations so we can take a look at what had been suggested. I think that would be very helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Guimond.