Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 1st, 2007

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

It's carried. So that's what we'll do with it.

Before we move on to any other business, colleagues, I know you were handed out the draft letter. We don't need to go in camera on this, and we can stay in public. You have the draft letter to the parliamentary press gallery in front of you. It was handed out 20 minutes or so ago.

Are there any objections to the letter? Can I get the committee's approval to send the letter out?

I have one member who wants to have a quick look at it, and that's obviously okay....

Is everybody now in agreement?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

It's so carried. The letter will go out to the press gallery.

Is there any other business?

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to put forward a motion. Copies of it are being distributed at the moment.

It reads as follows:

The committee asks that the current Speaker respects former Speaker John Fraser's initiative to reduce pollution by asking ministers not to idle their cars while on Parliament Hill and to provide a waiting area for the ministers' drivers so they can wait for ministers inside on inclement days.

I think this is an important matter, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Do we have any discussion on the motion?

We'll have Mr. Hill and then Monsieur Proulx.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

I certainly have no problem suggesting that the Speaker take a look at this issue. It came up in question period yesterday. I think everybody was there, probably, or is aware of it.

The way the motion is worded, it could potentially be problematic. I guess it depends on what is meant by “not to idle their cars”. Does that mean that as soon as you turn the key on, you immediately put it in gear, or do you mean that they not idle their cars for more than 15 minutes? When it's -30 degrees outside, for example, and I drive my personal car here and I park off to the side--I have a 400 parking pass, as I think most of the whips do--I go out and start my car and let it warm up a little bit. It's not because I want to pollute the air. It's because I'm a little bit tender--

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

--and I like to have at least a reasonably warm vehicle to crawl into.

So would I be breaking the rule, then, by having my personal car? Or is it only ministers that Mr. Godin wants to pick on, or only chauffeurs? I don't know. But the motion, as it's worded, I think, is problematic, because it's not only ministers' cars that are idling on the Hill from time to time when the weather is cold. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make.

I have no problem with it being referred to the Speaker so he can have a look at the situation. I didn't realize that John Fraser, for example, had made a ruling or something in the past. So if there's something that can be done about it, I'm certainly not opposed to that. But as I said, I think it's not just ministers' cars that potentially idle from time to time on the Hill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Is this a motion that the committee send a letter or a report, Mr. Godin?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It can be either. It's just that we want to bring to his attention that there is a rule that exists, and we want the Speaker to respect the rule. I'm open to specifying that it is somebody sitting in his car just waiting for somebody else. The warming up of a car, I mean, we understand that. It's just that we don't want somebody to be an hour just sitting there waiting for someone. Let's be reasonable about it. Right now, it's not reasonable. They could stay there for three hours or four hours just waiting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Again, the intent of the motion--

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'll just raise another issue. As whips, all of us have the ability to write a letter and raise it with the BOIE, as the agency or the board that actually manages things on the Hill. I just wonder if that wouldn't be more appropriate than involving this committee, although I don't have a problem with the committee writing a letter or whatever.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Monsieur Proulx is next.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Very briefly, I think this has to be refined, and I think maybe we could use a guideline. There is a municipal bylaw here in the city of Ottawa with regard to cars idling. I forget if it's five minutes or ten minutes or whatever, but that would reach the point Mr. Hill was making.

Second, on the question of providing a waiting area for the ministers' drivers, I remind everybody that all these ministers have offices on the Hill. These drivers are employees of the ministers, so they can go and sit in their minister's offices and twiddle their thumbs if they have no other use. But space is so rare on the Hill, let them use their bosses' offices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mrs. Redman, Mr. Reid, and then Monsieur Guimond.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was going to make the same point. I know that when I was a municipal politician there were bylaws that regulated idling, and that certainly is worth looking at.

The other thing that isn't clear for me is whether it's the lack of somewhere to go that contributes to those cars idling and the drivers being in them. Is there some other reason that we don't know about? It seems to me there's a presumption that there is a lack of a place for these drivers to go and that is indeed why they're idling their cars and sitting in them. I don't know that this is the case.

It would seem to me that it's a legitimate issue. I have sympathy for it. I don't like to see those cars idling. So I think the intent of it, to stop cars from idling, is a very good one, but I don't know that necessarily providing the drivers with a room will stop that from happening if there are other reasons contributing to it. So I think it's worth pursuing but maybe not in this way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Reid, Monsieur Guimond, and then Mr. Godin.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I thought Mr. Proulx's first comment was very good, about looking at the municipal bylaw that deals with that particular problem. I think his second suggestion, about ministers' offices, isn't that practical. Ministerial offices, of course, are scattered all over the city; and as for MP offices of the ministers, they're scattered all over Parliament Hill, in the justice building and so on.

I gather that part of the role of the drivers is to be there at the end of cabinet meetings, for example, to take the ministers away from cabinet meetings. It would be impractical—because you don't know when a cabinet meeting is going to end--to expect them to go to the MP's office, come back out, start the car, and so on.

I'm not a minister myself and I haven't been one, but we do have one former minister here. Would she assure us that this would have worked in her case and that her car would never have been idling? We have some experience here, so maybe she could shed some light on this for us.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I have to say, my experience is that it's the drivers who like to be together. They are alone. It's very long to wait on ministers sometimes. You have to wait three hours. So they prefer to be three or four in a car and speaking together. Sometimes they go to the cafeteria together, and they have a lunch and they talk.

My last driver was a man who didn't like to yak with the other ones. He went back all the time to my office, which was on Slater Street, where the Ethics Commissioner is. We made an arrangement that when I finished my committee, I would send an e-mail to my office. He would come five or ten minutes later, and that was it.

So I think you have both here. The minister needs to have his car ready to go when he has to go. He cannot wait a half an hour for a car. Time is so strict for a minister. He has meetings and so on. But at the same time, I think there's the point of view of the drivers, too.

That's my experience.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Monsieur Guimond, and then Mr. Godin.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

I'm not familiar with the initiative of former Speaker John Fraser. Is this a verbal or a written request? Did Mr. Fraser send out a memorandum at the time? We are asking Mr. Milliken to do the same thing. Personally, I would like to know exactly what form this initiative took. Perhaps Mr. Godin could tell me that.

In addition, we are supposed to be having a meeting with the people from the Board of Internal Economy next Monday. Unlike my colleague Jay, I am not sure this matter comes under the board's authority. I am not sure that Mr. Milliken will feel very kindly about implementing these initiatives. This is a suggestion from our committee, which manages—and this may be an overstatement—the parliamentary precinct with respect to matters such as security, the buildings, and so on. I think the committee is the appropriate place to deal with the matter. I am not sure it should be referred to the Board of Internal Economy. In any case, if Jay would like to discuss it on Monday, we will see how the Speaker reacts.

I think this is a serious concern and that Ms. Robillard set us straight on it. Sometimes, drivers' jobs are quite lonely. They may talk with the minister they're driving, but only if the minister is not on the telephone or the BlackBerry. I am not sure that ministers and drivers get into any heart-to-heart conversations. I've never been a minister, and I never will be one here. I may be one some day, but that will be in a different place.

I don't want to make any petty comments, but since I park my car in section 400 as well, I can see, both in the case of the new Suburban used by the Prime Minister, which sometimes prevents me with backing up, as is the case of the limousine used by the RCMP guards, that the engines are idling merrily away.

Since the new government says it is green, it should agree with Mr. Godin's suggestion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Godin, could we have a final word, please.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

This morning's Ottawa Sun and Toronto Sun reported that the House of Commons Speaker at the time, John Fraser, sent a letter in 1990 to all cabinet ministers formally requesting that they cease idling their cars. The RCMP and the Commons security were asked to enforce the edicts. “It is terribly important that we lead the way on this issue,” wrote Fraser in a letter dated June 6, 1990.

There's a letter in existence, and I am asking you to eliminate all unnecessary idling of vehicles. If you idle to warm it up, that's not unnecessary. We're talking about the ones just idling there waiting.

I hope I have the support of the committee, but if Monsieur Guimond would feel better having the information

from Mr. Fraser, we can ask James to get that for us. Then we could have a look at it at our next meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Monsieur Guimond, I'm willing to give you the floor again, but I'm ready to ask the committee if we're ready for the question. Could you keep it short, please?