Evidence of meeting #58 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was loan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Carroll  National Director, Liberal Party of Canada
Jack Siegel  Legal Counsel, Liberal Party of Canada
Gilbert Gardner  General Director, Bloc Québécois
Éric Hébert-Daly  Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party
Raylene Lang-Dion  National Chair, Equal Voice
Ann Wicks  Executive Director, Equal Voice

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Good morning, everyone, and thank you, colleagues, for attending this meeting.

We have a number of guests with us this morning, a number of expert witnesses who will help us muddle our way through Bill C-54.

Colleagues, I want to remind everyone that this meeting is being held in public, and I just want to bring everyone up to date on the issue of witnesses. We did have a number of requests come in for witnesses, and we have everyone here this morning except for the Vancouver Citibank.

Did you want to make a comment on that right away? Then that will solve some problems.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, please.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Yes, I have checked with Yvon Godin's staff person, and although he would have liked to have had a representative from the Vancouver Citibank here, if it means holding up the process to make that happen he's quite prepared to let it go.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much.

I just want to make a note for everyone that we were having some difficulty getting this last witness here. The offer for video conferencing was made, the request was that they be flown out here, and there were some difficulties with making this happen. However, I do appreciate very much the NDP withdrawing the request for that witness, and if I could just have unanimous consent from the committee to withdraw that witness, then we will be able to complete our witness testimony at today's meeting.

I have some other things to say, but first, Madam Redman, please.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciate the cooperation of the NDP. I think it is important to hear from banks, and I wonder, when we withdraw this request, if it would be possible to ask you to perhaps invite them to give a written submission.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

We'll do exactly that, and we'll have that out today.

Colleagues, having said that, then we're going to drift off a little bit. We have a meeting scheduled for Monday, and there have been some requests that we keep the meeting on Monday, and move right into clause-by-clause. If members are willing to do that, then we are prepared to do that. However, I'm going to make a bit of a request. After today's testimony, it makes sense to me that if anyone hears something that would cause them to request an amendment, that we have that amendment to our clerk by five o'clock today.

I'm seeing nods of the head, and we can do that. That would allow us to determine the relevance of the amendment, as well as get them translated, and have them back to everybody for Monday morning's clause-by-clause.

Everybody is happy?

Thank you very much, colleagues.

This morning we'll move right along. I would advise everyone that we have lunch coming, and if we need the time we will continue the meeting, but if we feel that we've wrapped it up we will just enjoy lunch. Our guests today are invited to stay, obviously, and you may actually be sitting in the hot seat answering questions, but please feel free to get up and serve yourselves at that time. We do have this room booked from now until two o'clock, or as close to that as possible, and we will respect question period, of course.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, May 28, the committee will now resume its consideration of Bill C-54, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act on accountability with respect to loans.

I'm going to ask our guests to introduce themselves first. We'll start over here with Mr. Carroll. If you could just introduce yourself, and who you represent, then I will instruct you further.

Mr. Carroll, please.

11:05 a.m.

James Carroll National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

My name is James Carroll and I am the National Director for the Liberal Party of Canada.

11:05 a.m.

Jack Siegel Legal Counsel, Liberal Party of Canada

I'm Jack Siegel, legal counsel for the Liberal Party of Canada.

11:05 a.m.

Gilbert Gardner General Director, Bloc Québécois

My name is Gilbert Gardner and I am the General Director for the Bloc Québécois.

11:05 a.m.

Éric Hébert-Daly Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

My name is Éric Hébert-Daly and I am the Federal Secretary for the New Democratic Party.

11:05 a.m.

Raylene Lang-Dion National Chair, Equal Voice

Raylene Lang-Dion, national chair, Equal Voice.

11:05 a.m.

Ann Wicks Executive Director, Equal Voice

Ann Wicks, executive director for Equal Voice.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much.

I'm going to start with Mr. Carroll, and I'll ask our guests to keep your introductory comments, if you wish to make one, to two to three minutes. Then we will open our rounds for questioning, and at some point, if there is something else in your presentation you wanted to make clear, there will be time for it at that time.

If that's acceptable to everyone, let's begin with opening comments.

Mr. Carroll, please.

11:10 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

James Carroll

Mr. Chair, I have just two quick notes.

First, Mr. Siegel and I unfortunately have to leave at 1:30. We assumed that it was a standard two-hour committee meeting. Our apologies for that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

That's fair. Thank you. No problem.

11:10 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

James Carroll

Second, I do have prepared remarks that are a little longer than three to five minutes, so if at some point I commence to ramble, please just cut me off.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

I'm going to offer you as much time as you think you need. It's just a guideline from the chair, since we have so many witnesses. But please begin and we'll see how it goes.

11:10 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

James Carroll

I would like to thank the committee for inviting me to appear before you today. With me is Mr. Jack Siegel, legal counsel for the Liberal Party and a long time Liberal member.

I won't be offering much in terms of an opinion on the bill, as the Liberal members of the committee are much better equipped to do that than I, but I would like to share a few thoughts on what some of the consequences, intended or otherwise, might be if this legislation is adopted.

Section 405.5, as drafted, prohibits the making of loans or guarantees to registered parties, registered associations, candidates, leadership contestants, and nomination contestants, except where the lender is a financial institution or where the lender or guarantor is a qualified individual who is limited to a $1,000 loan or guarantee—$1,000 adjusted for inflation. In other words, the only permissible loans over $1,000 are to be made by financial institutions, but those institutions are prohibited from getting a guarantee in excess of $1,000. This leaves open the rather substantial question of how to secure such a loan. We would suggest—and Mr. Siegel has confirmed this with counsel for one of the major banks—that it would be all but impossible for a candidate to get such a loan unless he or she can obtain several $1,000 guarantees that the lender is prepared to accept.

We feel that this is completely unworkable in an election period. Each member of the committee will know that on the day an election writ is issued, you want to spend money. You want to buy signs, you want to print literature, and you want to rent a campaign office for which, at the very least, a deposit is going to be required up front. That's more than $1,000, and you will need it right away. There's an exception in the bill, so you can actually lend your own campaign $2,000, but that's still not going to be enough.

If the bank will even consider a loan at all, you will need to collect $1,000 guarantees. But keep in mind that each $1,000 guarantor is then prohibited from making a contribution to the campaign, over and above that guarantee. See proposed subsection 405.5(4), specifically the passage starting with the word “However”.

So you turn to your riding association. It can transfer money to the campaign, after all, in order to pay these expenses. But one had better look first at Elections Canada's information sheet 5. It says at paragraph 19:

A registered association may transfer goods and services and funds other than trust funds to any candidate endorsed by the party with which the association is affiliated and whose nomination has been confirmed by the returning officer.

So the riding association cannot transfer funds to your campaign until your nomination has been confirmed by the returning officer. On the day the writ is issued, there is rarely a returning office that has opened. Even if you can submit papers on that day, the returning officer must validate the nomination papers, including checking 100 signatures against a list of electors. So you have no money available to transfer from the association.

Proposed subsection 405.5(5) provides for loans from registered associations to candidates, but Elections Canada seems consistently to interpret “candidate” in the financial context as someone whose nomination papers have been confirmed. So again, there appears to be a built-in delay.

Your only means of obtaining money right from the beginning of the campaign, then, is by direct contributions to your official agent from qualified contributors. But according to Canada Revenue Agency income tax information circular IC75-2R7,

Official agents can only issue such receipts for monetary contributions received in a certain period. This is the period that starts with the day on which the candidate's nomination has been confirmed by the returning officer, and ends on the day that is 30 days after polling day.

So those contributions will not qualify for a tax receipt until the papers are confirmed. It seems very unlikely that most donors would make these contributions and give up the tax credit.

All partisanship aside, we do not think this works. Candidates do not typically file their papers at the very beginning of a writ period. After all, in a minimum five-week campaign, they have until the Monday that is three weeks before election day to file. It is certainly the experience in our party that an awful lot of candidates do not file until close to the deadline. In the absence of loans—and we ask the rhetorical question of whether an extension of credit might constitute a loan within the meaning of the bill—the necessary money to operate a campaign at the local level may simply be unobtainable for the first two weeks of a campaign.

And then, please consider the registered parties. The loan guarantee problem is not an issue, since the chief agents of most major parties guarantee campaign loans secured against the rebates that the parties will ultimately receive. And the rebate money goes to and flows from the chief agent of the party. Three of the four parliamentary parties represented here have chief agents that are corporations. They cannot issue guarantees under this proposed legislation. But surely each have good lawyers who can structure the loan security so that it is not a guarantee.

But wouldn't that amount to doing indirectly what you cannot do directly? If so, then could that be a violation of section 405.2 of the act?

Again, all partisanship aside, we are left to wonder if this was really the government's intent and would encourage a careful scrutiny of this section of the bill.

With regard to proposed section 405.7, realistically, the bill is about bank loans over $1,000. We do not know of any financial institution that loans money in the absence of a binding agreement to pay. So although section 405.7 resembles several other provisions already in the act, it appears that the 18-month deeming of a loan to be a contribution will never apply to such loans.

I'm sure that the Liberal members of the committee will be offering other amendments, but there's one that I'd like to suggest to members of the committee for their consideration. In terms of potential amendments, every limit on contributions currently found in the Elections Act is an annual contribution except one, and that's to leadership contestants.

The Liberal Party is perhaps the only one of all of the parties represented here that has run a successful leadership campaign under the rules, but we can assume that all of the other parties will eventually follow suit.

If it is no longer possible for the leadership candidates in Canada to take out a loan, then the solution would be to amend the provisions in the act that relate to contributions made to the leadership so as to harmonize them with the other provisions relating to contribution limits. In other words, there should be an annual limit instead of a limit that would apply to the duration of a party's leadership campaign.

By allowing leadership contestants to raise money ahead of a campaign so that they don't have to borrow to start their campaigns and so they can regularize their contributions for a post-campaign clean-up of their debts, if any, the loan provision may be less important.

I hope the committee will consider this suggestion. And I understand that a text of the necessary amendment will be provided by Liberal members of the committee at the appropriate time.

Thank you very much.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. It's a lot of information and we'll take it into consideration.

Mr. Siegel, please.

11:15 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Liberal Party of Canada

Jack Siegel

We're together.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

All right.

Mr. Gardner, please. Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

General Director, Bloc Québécois

Gilbert Gardner

Thank you for inviting us to express our opinions on Bill C-54.

The Bloc Québécois supports the principle of the bill, which sets out the guidelines for loans. The bill will ensure compliance with the rapidly evolving rules relating to federal party funding. It will also prevent any shady or downright fraudulent lending from taking place. However, the application of some of the clauses—because, often, the devil is in the details—is problematic.

There are three types of lenders defined in this bill: the individual, with relevant contribution limits; financial institutions, and political parties.

Over the years, financial institutions have developed scales, rules and risk assessment methodology that can be applied to loan applications for an election campaign or a leadership race.

Proposed subsection 405.7(1) is perhaps the provision that is the most problematic for us. It states that a loan that remains unpaid at the end of the time that is provided for repayment is deemed to be a contribution. On the one hand, we feel that the timeframe in the bill is too short to allow for the refund of election expenses by Elections Canada. There is usually an 18-month deadline. However, a candidate who is waiting for a refund from the Chief Electoral Officer in order to pay back a loan must often wait more than 18 months—and this is a common occurrence, irrespective of the party—because it often takes longer than that for Elections Canada to cut the cheque.

The second problem relates to the fact that the loan becomes a contribution. That is not really an issue for parties or individuals, as long as the contribution limits are respected. But it does become a problem for the financial institution, which is deemed to have made a contribution, even though, by law, contributions by financial institutions are prohibited. So, a loan that was granted in good faith, according to the law, becomes a contribution and an institution ends up breaking the law because the loan that was granted in good faith, with good intent, becomes a contribution. Moreover, any illegal contribution must be remitted to the Chief Electoral Officer, who then remits it to the Receiver General for Canada.

Would a financial institution that granted a loan and that finds itself on the wrong side of the law because the loan becomes a contribution after 18 months remit an amount equal to that of the initial loan to Elections Canada, which will then remit it to the Receiver General, and forego any possibility of recovering the debt? It makes no sense to me.

Proposed subsection 405.7(5), on page 5 of the bill, states that if the candidate is unable to pay, then the party becomes liable for the unpaid amount as if the party had guaranteed the loan. Even though neither the association nor the party were involved in the negotiations for the loan, which only involve the individual borrower and the lender, even though they were not a party to the agreement, if the debt is not repaid, they will nevertheless be liable, as if they had guaranteed the loan. It would be like me telling my banker that the committee chairman will cover me if I default on my loan, even though the chairman was in no way involved in the original transaction.

Our solution would be to delete subsection 5, which ties the party or the association to the contribution. I repeat that if the contribution comes from a financial institution, even if the party becomes the guarantor, it is still illegal.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Merci.

Please, monsieur.

11:20 a.m.

Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

Éric Hébert-Daly

Thank you again for inviting us to appear before the committee.

First, let me say that the New Democratic Party of Canada supports most of the aspects of this bill. We believe that the legislation will help to level the playing field when it comes to our electoral system and more particularly election financing. We are delighted to see that you are studying this issue.

There are a few items that I'd like to highlight in terms of either possible amendments or suggestions to improve the bill. Some of them have been made by the Chief Electoral Officer, so I won't spend too much time on those, but I'm certainly going to just highlight one of the issues of accessibility.

It has been mentioned before that the guarantee of $1,100 is a real concern, because if you're going to get a loan, and in most cases riding associations will go out and get somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 on average to borrow, in fact somehow the number of guarantors makes it almost impossible for a bank to be able to do its due diligence of the guarantors and this sort of thing.

Having spoken to Vancity Credit Union, one of the witnesses you would have been able to hear from, they felt quite confident that in fact they would not need the same number of guarantors exactly as you'd find in the total loan. They feel that elements of that don't need to be guaranteed. They feel quite confident with the business case in a lot of ridings, particularly those getting rebates. So in fact that isn't as much of a concern as it might be for a lot of members of the committee.

But I would like to highlight the possibility, if you will, of extending the guarantor to three years of annual contribution limit. So essentially, if it were today, $3,300 could be guaranteed. If for whatever reason there was a default on the loan and that became a contribution, the contribution would then be deemed to be over those three years. So basically a person is not exceeding their contribution limits, but in fact you're allowing a little bit more of a cushion on the guarantees. So it's one of the suggestions that I think you might want to keep open. It doesn't open up the loophole any wider, but at the same time keeps that as a bit of an option.

The second point deals with fairness. I don't spend a lot of time reviewing all of the reports from candidates and riding associations, but I do have access to the loan agreements for all of the parties. There is often quite a discrepancy in the interest rates.

While it is easy to establish the fair market value for an election sign, which is a commodity, interest rates on loans vary according to the individual. I think there should be a clearly-established minimum interest rate.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Excuse me. There's a technical problem.

Okay, go ahead.

11:25 a.m.

Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

Éric Hébert-Daly

I'll just quickly summarize the point that while fair market value is relatively simple to calculate when it comes to signs and office space and these sorts of things, interest rates have a lot to do with the individuals and the guarantors and a lot of other issues. In fact, sometimes you can consider to be getting a fair market value for an interest rate that could actually be very low, relatively speaking.

To even the playing field, we would suggest that the bank rate plus 1% be the minimum of an interest rate charged for loans in these circumstances so that there aren't those types of loopholes available for people to essentially be making contributions, justifying that somehow they could have had access to a loan that would have had a very preferential rate of interest. So there is, I think, a bit of fairness on that item.

The Chief Electoral Officer has written to you about reporting and making sure that's uniformized in one report, rather than creating multiple reports. I'd strongly recommend that you take that suggestion.

With respect to the responsibility of political parties, as Mr. Gardner has said, a party can become an unwitting guarantor of a debt. I think we should follow Mr. Gardner's suggestion and simply delete this subsection or find some way to ensure that the registered party or association will be aware of the stipulation and agree to guarantee any loan that could eventually become a debt.

This option would ensure that everyone is on the same page. Moreover, when I last appeared before this committee, I strongly suggested that you amend the Elections Act to allow the transfer of campaign debts to a party or to a registered association. This bill would provide us with the possibility to at least transfer a debt arising from a loan, if not a common debt.

Once again, we strongly support this bill and we hope that you will be able to pass it quickly.