Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Preston, please.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you.

I'm happy to hear some of the comments on the use of ID, perhaps photo ID, and I'm with you: I don't want to disenfranchise anyone. I think we're now talking about such a small minority of people without ID that to ask for ID at the polling place may be an easier way to go. I'm happy to see that we're talking about that way.

Someone mentioned the citizenship requirement, which is another one that's been really bothering us, as to how we know. Some of these people are put on the electors' list from their tax return by their inadvertently checking a box when they're not Canadian citizens. Where is the challenge spot for that? As you've mentioned, there's also a great deal of hardship for scrutineers in challenging someone at the poll.

The third part, and I guess where I really want the answer is, this comes down to verifying against a list of electors. I think we can put all these other pieces in place to verify against a list, whether it's photo ID, citizenship proof, or anything else, but how do we make the list better in the first place? It's really coming down to the list's having an error rate greater than anyone would accept in any other way, shape, or form.

You mentioned 840,000 registrations on election day. These are people who wanted to be on the list and weren't there, but how many people aren't on the list in total? Mr. Kingsley admits an error rate, I believe, of 15% from his own surveys, and I would bet it's closer to double. I ask for your views on that.

Here are a couple of other quick ones. For alternative forms of voting, since we brought up Sunday voting, what about online and text voting?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We'll start in reverse order, please, with the NDP first, if that's okay.

[Eric Hébert]

Concerning online voting, there's a part of me—and this is by no means an official party position—that worries considerably about online voting in the sense that.... Right now, in fairness, special voting regulations mean that people can be voting in their houses right now. At the same time, there's something less concrete and I fear more subject to...not fraud, necessarily, but more subject to problems.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Something worse than where we are.

[Eric Hébert]

Yes. I think it goes an extra step beyond my personal level of comfort.

On your previous point—

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

How do we make the list better?

[Eric Hébert]

That part of the problem, to some degree, is that we need to do targeted revision in a bigger way. I think this has been mentioned before: we have areas of high turnover, particularly in urban areas, where there are ridings that turn over every year. Even when we have minority Parliaments that have elections every year, it seems to mean that people are moving, and that sort of thing.

We talked to Mr. Kingsley about targeted revision at his last meeting with the political parties. One of the points we brought up with him is that we really need to be able to devote more resources to this. He said in large part the problem was that returning officers were afraid to engage in allowing parties to say a particular area really needs to be targeted for revision, and that now that he would have more control over returning officers, it might help. I'm hoping it's going to assist.

Finally, having a specific ID number for voters I think will go a long way to making the list better as well. I think all of us tend to agree that having that type of number not only will assist us in the work we do on election day, but will also help to make the list better, because when somebody moves out of the riding, their number goes with them. It would help from that perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Gardner, please.

[Gilbert Gardner]

On the one hand, I think that, if a list were really permanent, it would be possible to improve it, to correct it permanently. That would be one way to improve the list. Using a single and permanent voter number, regardless of moves that occur over time, is also another way to locate electors very easily and quickly and to avoid repetitions that undermine the precision of the electoral list. I believe these measures are easy to implement and would make the list much clearer and more precise than it is today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacKinnon, would you like to make a brief comment?

[Steven MacKinnon]

On the issue of the validity of the list, the best I can say is that my friend from the Bloc has given us a good suggestion. Let's have better sources for that data. It is optional on your tax return, as you know. I don't know why it is an option. I don't know what the downside is for having your name on a permanent list of electors. If you do not avail yourself of your right to vote, then so be it.

That would be my fundamental observation. This has to be the priority for Elections Canada, simply put.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Donison, you have a final word.

[Michael D. Donison]

On the improvement of the list, I think the specific ID number is a good one; it follows the voter. We should also be able to challenge the permanent list between elections. We could organize our parties at the ground level to do that. There isn't enough time during the normal 36 days--well, it was 55 this time.

On the issue of online voting, again I'm expressing my own personal view. I'm not expressing the party view--okay Joe? We've already been talking about ID problems. Wow. Can you imagine the potential for fraud if human beings do not have to physically show up and apply?

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

They only have to show up with a magazine label; I'm not certain we have good enough security.

[Michael D. Donison]

I'm instinctively opposed. I think public voting should be public voting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Madam Picard is next, please.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The question I wanted to ask the Bloc québécois representatives has already been asked. Improving the voters list by ensuring that voters are identified by a single number was a priority for the Bloc québécois. Everyone answered and seemed to agree. That would be a great improvement. Using a number would help those who prepare the list and those who identify individuals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

You may go ahead, Monsieur Plamondon.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

I'd like to have your opinion on the tradition of having a representative from each party at the voting table during the election. There's the clerk, the deputy returning officer and a representative of each party. As we are heading into a century of extensive democratization and creation of a number of parties, one day there could be a clerk, a deputy returning officer and 12 individuals representing the parties at the table. Do you think it would be possible for the returning officer to appoint a person and to assign a person a list? That person would circle the names of individuals who vote, and that sheet would be posted at the door and would be available for all parties. Do you understand what I mean?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Could you give very quick answers, Mr. Gardner, please?

[Gilbert Gardner]

On the one hand, before you got here, the principle that the returning officer gives the numbers of electors who have voted—with a single number, that would be easy—was already referred to. I would add, with regard to the clarification of the electoral list, that, if we also have the voter's date of birth, we'll then have another tool available to all parties that would make it possible to clean up the voters list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Are there any further comments?

We will hear from the NDP, please.

[Eric Hébert]

I'd like to add this. If there is to be a table where checking is done and the representatives are there to check and attest that the checking procedure is official, then perhaps it's less important to have people at each table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. MacKinnon, you're okay?

Mr. Donison, would you have any comments?