Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much, Mr. Angus. I don't see what that has to do with Bill C-18. You can talk to me about that after. If it has relevance, I'll put you in touch....

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Can I just say “point of order”, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

You can say it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We have two band-aids on the septic wound already.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That's also a point of debate.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm just wondering if we'll be coming back a year from now to fix what you guys pulled today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Angus. That was incredibly relevant.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, are there any further questions for the witnesses?

Witnesses, first of all, let me apologize to you. It appears you were not told specifically enough, and my apologies on behalf of all members of the committee. In future we will make sure that witnesses who are invited are briefed better about the relevance of the issue before us.

We look forward to hearing from you again in the future when we deal with other aspects of the subject matter. But we certainly appreciate the information you have given to us, or attempted to give to us, on Bill C-18.

At this point, seeing no further questions from the members, I will thank you again, with the compliments of the committee. We appreciate your coming back again. You're dismissed.

Colleagues, we now have the option to move to clause-by-clause, which I believe is what the committee adopted as the first point, if that's the will of the committee. Do I see nods?

Okay. I will give members a few moments to get their bills out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, let's resume our meeting.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, November 16, 2007, the committee will now move to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-18, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (verification of residence).

In front of you, colleagues, you should have a copy of the bill as well as amendments that were in fact handed in. We will go through this in the usual fashion.

(Clause 1 agreed to)

(On clause 2)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We have one amendment to clause 2, by the NDP.

I'll ask Mr. Angus to introduce the amendment as a motion. Then I'll rule on whether it's out of order or not.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to your ruling.

With this bill, we are, as I said, looking at a quick-fix band-aid for one part of the problems that have been identified. Certainly it doesn't address them all.

The issue will come down to having one voucher who happens to be present at the polling station. My colleague Mr. Lukiwski gave the example of a rural couple who comes in. They have just moved in, and the neighbour knows them. Well, he could vouch for one and not the other.

So the issue of vouching is simply impractical. It will not address issues that the students raised.

Of course, I know you felt this was irrelevant to the issue, but it certainly is very relevant.

The amendment is looking to simply say the following:

(b) provides as proof of his or her identity and residence a sworn statement in the prescribed form, which shall be made available at all polling places and may be administered by the local deputy returning officer.

So that issue of the impracticality of the vouching element is taken out.

Mr. Chair, I think it is incumbent upon us--we are here to make legislation--to recognize that a camel was a horse that was made by a committee. We have certainly seen the camel with nine humps with this bill.

I'm looking for something that's practical, that's actually applicable in the field. What we've seen--especially as I've seen recently in Ontario, with the Ontario elections--is that people were not allowed to vote who had lived in their residences all their lives. This is simple and practical and will actually work in the field.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

I am ruling the amendment in order. Therefore we'll open it for debate.

If there is no debate on the amendment to clause 2, we can call the question.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Can we have a recorded vote?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Yes.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10, yeas 1)

(Clause 2 agreed to)

(On clause 3)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, clause 3 also has an amendment handed in. You should have that in front of you.

I will ask Mr. Angus to put that motion forward, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly I will continue on this issue, that we are dealing with this quick-fix band-aid. We didn't even actually want to hear witnesses, and when we did hear the witnesses, we told them they didn't understand what they were talking about, although they were speaking to the issue of vouching, and that the fundamental flaw with this bill is that it's not practical in the field, that it will not work, and that it will still continue to disenfranchise people.

I'm looking to amend clause 3 by replacing lines 26 to 42 on page 2 with the following:

(b) provides as proof of his or her identity and residence a sworn declaration in a prescribed form, which is present at all polling places and may be administered by the local deputy returning officer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

I rule that the amendment is in order.

Is there any debate on the amendment?

There is no debate. I'll call the question.

Mr. Angus asks for a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1)

(Clause 3 agreed to)

(On clause 4)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, it's the same thing with clause 4. We have an amendment to clause 4. You should have it in front of you. It is amendment NDP-3, and I will ask Mr. Angus to table the motion.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Continuing on, I believe it is incumbent upon us as legislators to bring forward laws that actually work and that are not simply quick fixes because everybody's rushing out to get elected in February. We have identified numerous problems with this bill, just as we identified problems with Bill C-31. We have to refer back to Bill C-31 strictly because this is the latest band-aid for a bill that was embarrassingly botched, and it appears our committee hasn't learned from that mistake and is going to continue on.

I must state that the issue of vouching is a problem. It has been identified as a problem. It isn't practical, so I move that clause 4 be amended by replacing the lines 20 to 36 on page 3 with the following:

(b) provides as proof of his or her identity and residence a sworn declaration in a prescribed form, which is present at all polling places and may be administered by the local deputy returning officer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you , Mr. Angus. Is there debate on the amendment to clause 4?

I'll call the question then.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

May we please have a recorded vote?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1)

(Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Shall the title carry?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.