Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think it would be appropriate to put it back on the order paper for Thursday.

However, there is another matter that I think also ought to be on the order paper on Thursday. I would suggest that it not be dealt with prior to this. It is, of course, Bill C-6, which deals with the veiled voting issue. It's a piece of legislation. We have had privileging pieces of legislation to deal with. If we were to put it on the order paper on Thursday, then we could complete it, vote on it, and send it back to the House where it could be dealt with.

We could also arrange to have witnesses in if necessary. We just did that today. Certainly, the option exists to do that.

I was wondering if you could see if there is support for that from this group.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

I am starting to hear some divisions within.

I'm going to hear from Mr. Proulx, very quickly, please. I haven't heard from Mr. Proulx very often.

Mr. Guimond, I'll give you an option, too, but let's keep it short.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I apologize for my shyness, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I hate to say this, but I think Mr. Guimond has made an excellent point. I'm jokingly saying that I hate to say this, but I think he's made an excellent point as to why the five-day limit was put in the rules. It is so we can make a decision, and a member does not lose his or her turn on the list. Therefore, I think we have to make a decision now.

With regard to Mr. Reid, I don't think we can go to that piece of legislation, because if you recall, we still have a motion on the table by Ms. Redman with regard to the ins and outs.

My suggestion, Mr. Chair, is that we take a vote now--we've had about an hour's discussion, and I wish we would solve this problem now--to assist or shut down the rights of the member.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We'll have Mr. Guimond and then Mr. Godin.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

In short, Mr. Chairman, we have discussed it sufficiently and we are ready to make a well-informed decision.

I would just like to conclude by adding a brief argument that I forgot to raise earlier. If we accept to hear witnesses, we no longer need a Subcommittee on Private Members' Business. It has done a marvellous job and we, of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, are here to accept or reject its recommendations.

If we heard witnesses, and especially the law clerk of the House, we would no longer need the subcommittee. All the important issues regarding bills would be debated here, at the steering committee. This argues against the very existence of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business.

Mr. Chairman, I request that we call a division right away.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Merci.

Go very quickly, Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, I move a motion, whereby witnesses shall appear here on Thursday morning; the list be distributed before 6 p.m.; and that at the end of Thursday's meeting, within the two hours allotted to the meeting, we call a division and get this done once and for all.

This would respond to Mr. Guimond's concern about the five days. We would call in the witnesses and, within less than two hours, we would call a division.

This is what I move.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

I have concerns about putting a motion on the floor when we are still debating another motion, which is that the report by the subcommittee be concurred in.

Colleagues, I think the answer here is that I will defer my decision and consult with people and let the team know. Within 24 hours, hopefully, I'll have made that decision. We still have the five days. Madame Picard has met the rules within the five-day structure. As well, with respect to Monsieur Guimond's concern and to Mr. Lukiwski, five days is actually Thursday. So if I can make a decision by tomorrow, I invite members of the committee to write or submit to me.

Monsieur Guimond.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

The Standing Orders say that:

“within five sitting days”. We are inside the “within five sitting days”.

Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, do not try to get around this by putting it off until tomorrow in order to have consultations.

Let us make our decision right now. We are within the time limit. It does not say when the five days are over, or at the expiration of five days, but within five days.

How do we know that this afternoon there will not be a new order of precedence, so that Ms. Picard's case is relegated to the bottom of the list?

We must protect her rights right now. We have to make a decision right now. Let us do that right now.

[An hon. member]

We are not ready, Mr. Chairman.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

You are never ready anyway.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Very briefly, Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, let me repeat, regarding the five days, that it gives us the opportunity to study the issue in five days.

I agree with you: it is good for you to consult with experts to find out whether the five days are only meant to allow for a challenge from the witness, or whether they are a part of...

Because I think that we will be committing a monumental error if we vote in the way that Mr. Guimond suggested. This is my opinion. I do not want to pretend that I am right, but I think that we would be making a tremendous mistake.

We need an opportunity to reflect and to have parliamentary experts and legislators advise us on whether we are right or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I think I'm going to close the discussion out of respect for members. I appreciate and have heard all members. I will make a decision within 24 hours--

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Mr. Chairman, it's not your decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

--on whether or not--

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

It's the decision of the committee; it's not your decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Order, please.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

We have to vote. You have two motions. We will vote on the motion of Mr. Godin. After, we will vote on the motion asking to vote today. That's all. You do not have to reflect. We will make the reflection together. It's not your role.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

There's still debate on the original motion, and I can't cut off debate on the motion. We're past the time--

[An hon. member]

It's up to you to debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Well, then, let's get unanimous consent or a majority to continue the debate.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

No, there is still a debate going on, Mr. Chairman. We must carry on the debate, you cannot decide to adjourn.

Let those who want to obstruct the proceedings take the blame. As far as we are concerned, we are ready to vote right away, but we will carry on with the debate.

The time indicated by a notice of meeting is merely an indication. We are having a debate, there is a motion before us, you cannot adjourn.

You can ask Mr. Szabo what I said to him, the other day, at the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, when he wanted to stop the deliberations. He understood the very same argument.

You must respect the Standing Orders, Mr. Chairman. Let us continue. If anyone else wants to speak, let them go ahead, we have nothing further to say.

Let us call a division.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Ladies and gentlemen, I respect everybody's opinion, and there are times when we do have other responsibilities to attend to, and I can hear the other side of that argument as we speak.

This meeting is adjourned.