Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's bring our meeting to order.

First, I want to apologize briefly—simply because we're running a little short on time—for starting late this morning. We had some business in the chamber that had to be attended to. So we're starting right away, following a vote in the House, pursuant to the committee's order of reference of Friday, November 16, 2007, on Bill C-18, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act, in regard to verification of residence.

During the second hour of this meeting we're going to begin discussions and consideration of the first report of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business regarding Bill C-482.

Colleagues, this morning we have a number of witnesses. We have two witnesses here in the room with us, as well as three by video conference.

To the witnesses, in a moment's time I'm going to give you each no more than two minutes to introduce yourself and, if you choose, provide us with an opening statement. That will allow members more time to ask questions that are very specific to their needs.

I want to remind members and witnesses that we have been dealing with a few bills that are very similar. I'm going to listen very carefully and try to keep us on topic and relevant to the topic this morning, which is the rural address identification and verification issue.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

I have a point of order.

I am sorry to interrupt you. Given the delay in getting started, I think that you will find unanimous consent to... It is unfortunate that Mr. Lukiwski has not arrived yet. He had discussions with us, and we agreed with our NDP colleagues and the Liberals that we could finish hearing witnesses today and deal with Ms. Picard's item, and then do clause-by-clause study on Thursday.

As far as we are concerned, I can tell you immediately, Mr. Chairman, that if the government were to present a motion to have Bill C-18 sent to the Senate as quickly as possible, the Bloc Québécois would support it.

I am asking for unanimous consent. Mr. Reid may not be aware of this, but it is what Mr. Lukiwski has proposed.

I have unanimous consent with regard to what you suggest. I hope you will be okay with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm sorry, could you please repeat that, Mr. Guimond?

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

I am asking for unanimous consent regarding what you discussed with Ms. Picard, and your proposal, Tom, through you, Mr. Chairman, that we finish hearing witnesses on C-18 and then immediately move to Ms. Picard's item, and that we do Bill C-18 clause-by-clause consideration on Thursday morning.

I have checked with my Liberal colleagues and my NDP colleague; they agree with your proposal, Mr. Lukiwski. On behalf of the Bloc Québécois, I have announced that we would support having Bill C-18 sent to the Senate as quickly as possible for consideration there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Monsieur Guimond.

What I had been suggesting is that, if possible, we deal with clause-by-clause on Bill C-18 today. I'm not sure how all opposition parties would view this, but if we were able to get clause-by-clause done by today, I would then ask for unanimous consent in the House to report it back to the House today, which would allow us to debate Bill C-18 on Thursday. If we were able to conclude debate on Thursday, we could vote Thursday evening. In that way, Bill C-18 could be referred to the Senate before we rise for Christmas. If we cannot accomplish that, then Bill C-18 will not become law, will not be granted royal assent, until the new year.

My concern is, again, that because of pending elections, we may be in a situation where Bill C-18 is not a law before a byelection or a general election. That's why I'd like to get it done today, if possible, rather than wait until Thursday.

If we wait until Thursday, Michel, this bill will not be given royal assent until sometime in the new year, perhaps as late as February.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

What I'm hearing between the two conversations is that there's a possibility of doing all three today. We might want to deal with this first motion first and then maybe a motion to extend the meeting today by half an hour if we have to.

I'm just throwing that out there, but we're back to Monsieur Guimond.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Chair, if I may, thank you for that. I got in late, and I apologize for that. I was going to ask if we had unanimous consent to extend this meeting by 30 minutes because of the bells, because I want to make sure that Madam Picard has the full opportunity to speak to her concerns on the appeal of the private member's bill. But to do that and clause-by-clause and hear the witnesses, I'm thinking we need an extra 30 minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I have some hands up.

I just want to discuss a bunch of motions. We have a motion for unanimous consent to go forward. It sounds to me that we have a slight amendment to that. We also have a motion to extend the meeting by half an hour. I don't want this to go on too long.

I saw Mr. Angus' hand up first, and then Mr. Proulx's.

Mr. Angus, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I talked with my colleague from the Bloc, and I thought there had been a general discussion that they were going to do clause-by-clause on Thursday. If that's not on the table, it seems to me very strange that we'd hear witnesses, go to another issue, then try to do clause-by-clause. If this bill is as important as everyone says it is then we should deal with this bill and get it done. Then there's a separate issue that can be dealt with whenever.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to understand the difference in what Mr. Lukiwski is actually suggesting. Are we talking about working until one o'clock, 1:30, or two o'clock?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

What I'm hearing is 1:30.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

So the extra half hour would be from 1 to 1:30? And then we would do clause-by-clause today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

My thinking is we could probably do them all, and I think Mr. Lukiwski is suggesting that we do all three today, in our two hours--or at least make the best effort we can.

I just want to make sure that Monsieur Guimond, who put the first suggestion forward, is okay with this.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Yes, but I withdraw my suggestion, Mr. Chairman, since this is not quite the way things were explained to me. When Mr. Lukiwski was speaking to Ms. Picard, I was speaking to you. I cannot follow two conversations at once, even if I have two ears. I withdraw my proposal, and I support what Mr. Lukiwski has proposed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

All right.

Can we have general consent that we're going to move with the witnesses and then deal with clause-by-clause as well as the private members' business today? Is everybody okay with that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Now we're back to introducing our witnesses.

Again, I would just offer the witnesses no more than two minutes. I always like to let witnesses talk as much as we can, but we're on a tight rein today. I know that most of the witnesses, if not all, have presented before the committee before, so most of the committee members know who they are.

But we'll start here in the room with Naresh. Could you please introduce yourself&

[Naresh Raghubeer, Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Democracies]

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, good morning. My name is Naresh Raghubeer, and I am executive director of the Canadian Coalition for Democracies, CCD for short. I appear before you today on behalf of my organization.

We at the Canadian Coalition for Democracies--a non-partisan, multi-ethnic, multi-religious organization of concerned Canadians dedicated to human rights, national security, and the promotion of democracy--are concerned that provisions enacted by Bill C-18 may make the system of voting more susceptible to abuse. Consider the federal government's 1997 study A History of the Vote in Canada. It says, “Evolution of the right to vote was neither consistent nor ordered...rather, it evolved haphazardly, with the franchise expanding and contracting numerous times.” Today's parliamentary committee hearings serve further evidence that electoral matters continue to evolve, and not always in the most predictable of ways. The quest for accommodation, partly reasonable and partly unreasonable, is raising concerns.

First, CCD is concerned by the government's decision to “permit a voter to vouch for another voter where the acceptable identification of the former lacks a civic address”. Taking the government's suggestion to its logical conclusion, we may very soon be seeing on election day a potential voter dressed in a full burka vouching for another voter clad in a burka. While this may not trouble some members of committee who have already voiced their support for--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Raghubeer. I appreciate it. I'm terribly sorry. We're running out of time here, and I am going to touch on the point of relevance. This is on rural voting, civic addresses, not veiled voting. Could we keep our comments to this bill?

Thank you.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

Sorry.

CCD's second concern is about the government's determination to proceed with the process of registering new voters at the polling stations on election day. In Quebec, voters are required to be registered and on the voters list prior to election day in order to receive a ballot and vote. No Quebecker complains that the legitimate citizens are being disenfranchised by this system, which requires ample time for pre-registration and verification of voters.

CCD urges members of this committee to consider ending the system of registration on election day as a means of preventing potential abuse.

Third, as Canada's population becomes more diverse, the Canadian Coalition for Democracies is concerned about the availability of mail-in ballots to citizens resident in Canada and to Canadians who reside outside the country.

Last year Canada evacuated more than 30,000 dual citizens from Lebanon. We have dual-citizen Canadians fighting as part of the Islamic Courts Union in Somalia, and some dual citizens were in Afghanistan fighting on the side of the country's enemy--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Raghubeer, I'm terribly sorry, but I've let you go over about 50 seconds because I interrupted you.

I still don't see the relevance in your statement. However, there will be time during questions. You may want to get some of those points out, as long as they're relevant.

I will ask the witnesses in Vancouver to turn your microphones on so that you can participate in the conversation when I call on you, which will be in two minutes or less.

Mr. Boyko.

[Ian Boyko, Government Relations Coordinator, Canadian Federation of Students]

My name is Ian Boyko. I'm the government relations coordinator for the Canadian Federation of Students, which unites approximately half a million students at colleges and universities from coast to coast in all 10 provinces.

I'm going to abandon my remarks today, because two minutes isn't enough to even touch on some of the things we have concerns with.

What I will flag for the committee is that my members are having great difficulty understanding the rush that was involved with Bill C-31 in the spring and now the rush that's involved with Bill C-18 today, when there are so many flaws in the Elections Act that prevent students and those with transient addresses from registering to vote.

I welcome your questions, specifically with respect to proof of identity and residence and the provisions for vouching, which will ensure that tens of thousands of students won't be able to meet the Elections Act requirements in the upcoming federal election.

As I said, we have serious concerns about the way students are being alienated from this process and why there is the rush on rural voters and not the rush on other very important voting populations who were ignored in Bill C-31 and are also ignored in Bill C-18.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

We can go to our Vancouver panel.

I'm looking at Ms. Bradford. Perhaps you could introduce yourself. You have two minutes to open; then we'll just move across the panel to the other speakers.

Thank you.