Evidence of meeting #16 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-6.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. James M. Latimer

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Colleagues, let's reconvene the meeting.

Again, I just want to make sure everybody is fully aware of what my feelings are. I absolutely do not mind conversations going on in the room. I understand that they are necessary. There's research, etc. I don't mind that.

But what I do mind is when conversations start taking place across the table, or when folks on the perimeter of the room start getting louder than the members.

Let's carry on. Mr. Lemieux has the floor.

Let's try to keep it down. I'll give you as much leeway as I can, but when I can't hear, then we have a little bit of a problem.

Mr. Lemieux, please.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thanks, Chair.

I was just saying that with Bill C-6 in particular, it's obvious that the problems arose last summer when Parliament passed a bill regarding elections and the way in which they were going to be conducted. This bill was not interpreted to the liking of Parliament or members' understanding of the bill they had just passed, and they felt it was perhaps an overstepping by Elections Canada. They were quite clear on that.

I was just acknowledging that as chair, you have tried to seek clarification from Elections Canada. I was commenting that Elections Canada had written you back. Monsieur Mayrand had written back acknowledging the receipt of your letter in which you had informed him of the unanimous motion of the committee—so it was unanimous—calling upon Elections Canada to reverse its decision to allow veiled voting, which was the way he put it.

So there was unanimous consent in the committee to address the issue directly with Monsieur Mayrand, through you, Chair, in a formal manner, that is, through a letter, a letter that was a response, and to which Monsieur Mayrand responded. Once the bill made it through Parliament and was passed into law, we could say it had the support of the House; that's a fair comment to make. And when it was discussed by this committee at that time—and it had the unanimous consent of the committee—I think it's fair to say this was a concern to all parties in the House and to all parliamentarians, just from the point of view of unanimity.

But when he wrote back, Monsieur Mayrand said, “As I indicated in my press conference yesterday”—and he attached the transcript—“The Canada Elections Act provides several ways of voting that do not require the visual comparison of an elector with a photograph, and consequently the choice to unveil is that of the elector. This result flows not from a decision on my part, but from the act, as recently adopted by Parliament“.

Of course, there's great debate on that point. There certainly was great debate at that time on that point. I think the debate now has shown itself in the form of Bill C-6, which addresses this.

Now, what he did go on to say towards the end of his letter was that, “I would be pleased to appear [before] the Committee at your convenience to further discuss the requirements of the Act in this regard and the reasons why I believe an adaptation would not be justified at this time”.

So you had interpreted the letter to be a no to this unanimous motion passed by the committee. Attempts were then made to have Monsieur Mayrand appear before the committee.

Again, underlining the criticality of the issue, there are many influential MPs—I would point out Monsieur Guimond in particular—who basically expressed their opinions on this matter.

For example, my friend from the Bloc, Mr. Guimond, said:

I repeat that the Bloc supports the principle of the bill because it believes that all voters, men and women, must be equal before the law.

It's Mr. Guimond who said that, and I congratulate him on those words. He truly speaks on behalf of his party, the Bloc Québécois. He said this was really a critical problem that concerned not only the members and parties, but also voters across Canada. That's a quotation from Hansard.

But there are other MPs who spoke up at the same time—again, as I said, well-known MPs who have important things to add.

For example, Peter Van Loan, another minister, said that during the recent byelections held in Quebec, the government clearly expressed its disagreement with Elections Canada's decision to let people vote with their faces veiled. He said that in October 2007. His remarks were clear.

He also said he thought it was necessary to ensure that the population continues to have confidence in the electoral process. That's an important remark because we're talking about the public's trust in the electoral process. Members are afraid there is a decline in public trust in the electoral process.

That's why we're trying to improve the situation. We've heard from witnesses and we've engaged in debates to identify the reasons why voter turnout at elections is lower. The numbers—

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Excuse me, Mr. Lemieux.

Apparently there are some transmission problems because of the BlackBerrys. I'm hearing fine, but our translators are having some difficulties. I know you have to use them, so just push back from the table a little bit.

Please continue.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

So I was saying that the members in the House and those around this table are concerned about declining voter turn-out in the electoral process. We'd like to increase turn-out levels because the figures are constantly falling. We're looking for the reasons for that because we would like to provide solutions.

Mr. Van Loan's comment was really relevant. He said that, if the situation remained unresolved, poorly understood, that would undermine public confidence in the electoral process. That's one of the concerns of all members. We've previously spoken about that.

Mr. Van Loan also told the Globe and Mail that we had seen the consequences of that decision in the byelections that were held in Quebec in September. He also said before a committee that, when anyone starts ridiculing the established electoral rules, people begin losing confidence in their electoral system, and he didn't believe that we parliamentarians could let that be done without reacting.

That's why Bill C-6 is really of capital importance. There were some stupid things—

Stupid things were done during the election. People showed up with Darth Vader helmets to take advantage of what people perceived as a loophole or a poor interpretation of the electoral law. They made a mockery of the electoral system. In doing so, they have eroded the confidence of people who didn't do that, who had the good sense to not mock the system in that way, because they ask what's happening with the electoral system if it allows that to even occur. As I mentioned, this is a matter of concern for everybody in this room and everybody in Parliament, which is why we came up with Bill C-6.

That's why we decided to have official meetings here in committee, where the business on the agenda was to study Bill C-6 and to implement a solution as quickly as possible to improve the situation because that situation was utterly unacceptable. As I said, why aren't we on the right track? That's why I'm proud to introduce a motion to ensure that we are on the right track.

I quoted a number of remarks by Mr. Van Loan and my friend Mr. Guimond.

As regards the Liberal Party, I'd like to talk about the opinion of the leader of the official opposition, Stéphane Dion, on veiled voters. This comes from a September Canadian Press article stating that Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion is of the same view and that, in his opinion, it must be possible to identify people who are going to vote. The article states that Mr. Dion said in Vancouver that Elections Canada should assign female staff to the polling stations to identify women under their veils, something a man would not have a right to do.

Mr. Dion also stated that his party did not agree with Elections Canada, which he asked to reverse its decision. He added that, ultimately, a person must be able to be identified at the time of voting.

We see that the concerns are all well expressed and well stated everywhere.

One National Post article states that the Liberal leader, Stéphane Dion, whose party is having trouble finding support in the province, is also opposed to this measure. The Liberal leader says he believes that citizens are required to reveal their identity when they vote in an election. That's why he would like Elections Canada to reverse its decision and to require women to show their faces in order to prove their identity.

The words used to discuss the situation are strong and direct. I've made a few references to Mr. Mayrand's letter stating that Mr. Dion's remarks were not—

They weren't convincing enough to have him change his decision regarding veiled voting.

Stéphane Dion also went on to say that he had a real concern with the byelections. There were byelections at that time, so it wasn't just an esoteric argument, which we had time to consider. There were some very real byelections approaching in which people voted.

The integrity of the electoral process is paramount. If we want Canadians to participate in the electoral process, then we need to ensure that they in fact have a high level of confidence that the electoral process is sound. I would say that of all the laws we pass, some of the most important are those that concern electoral reform, because it affects each one of us, yes, personally.

But I don't think any of us here is vain enough to think we will be MPs for eternity. It also affects the future of our government. MPs come and MPs go. Even for MPs who have served for extremely long terms there comes a point when they go, and a new election determines who will replace them as MPs. If Canadians find fault with the system, then they aren't so interested in participating. Their skepticism increases--it does not decrease--particularly when they see a flagrant mockery of a misapplication of the law.

That's where Bill C-6 is important, because it directly addresses this concern, and it's a concern that was identified by many people.

Just to go on, in La Presse,

here's what it said: Mr. Dion also said he hoped that an amendment would be passed to have all voters vote with their faces uncovered in the next Canadian election. “There has to be an amendment,” he said. “However, that will come in time. Byelections are being held now. We want them to be held in a peaceful atmosphere. We disagree with Elections Canada's decision, but we respect it.”

He quite rightly put his finger on the point that this needed to change not just for the byelections but for the long term. He was recommending an amendment at that time simply to find an immediate solution because of the impending byelections.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Who is “he”?

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Oh, I'm sorry, it's Monsieur Dion.

I was talking about Mr. Dion. In the remarks I've just quoted, it was he who proposed an amendment. He suggested an amendment rather than another bill, because he wanted to address the problem as soon as possible as a result of the byelections currently underway.

I'm just saying that Monsieur Dion, who is the leader of the opposition, was speaking for the Liberal Party, and he was basically expressing his concern with this interpretation of the law and the need for it to be addressed. There was no question about that.

Monsieur Bélanger, another well-known MP, says, “If we want to board a plane in this country, we must provide photo ID”. He's right. Everybody now knows that when you board an airplane, you provide photo ID, and it's unveiled: you can't present your photo ID and yet have a veil on. In your photo on the driver's licence, you're not veiled. So we must prove who we are as well.

He went on to say, “ I do not have difficulty with that and I do not think anyone has. It is the same thing for the citizenship card. People must have a photo on it and Muslim women must be unveiled. I do not think anyone has difficulty with that because it is a universal application.”

The point he's making is very well taken. I particularly like his point regarding the universality, because elections have a universal application to them. Of course it is our hope that all Canadians of voting age will participate in elections, so we see it as being universal across Canada.

I think Monsieur Bélanger's point is that if we must have photo ID in which we are not veiled and if there are other circumstances under which we must present ourselves unveiled--for security reasons, in this case, or just for identification reasons--then this should apply to elections as well. It's a good point.

Even Mr. Godin... I'd like to read something because Mr. Godin is with us today.

Good morning.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Chairman—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

We have a point of order.

I got it; I got it. Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

That's very good. Thank you, gentlemen. I learn something new every day.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Okay, you know--

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you for your vigorous and well appreciated participation.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you, gentlemen.

Did you want to say something more, Monsieur Godin? I think I've got the point, and the member has been warned.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

I just wish that Monsieur Lemieux were not here today. Well, he's here.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

That's debate.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I have a point of order.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Okay, here we go again.

Go ahead, Madam Jennings.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

It is simply that you said the member has been warned. The member has not been warned. You simply said, “I got it; I got it”, and later you said that the member had been warned.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Do you need an official warning on the record?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I think that for the transcripts--

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Okay, I'll accept that. Thank you very much.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

--it would be good to point out the error of the member and to--

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate all that.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Have I been yellow-carded, Chair?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

We're going to hand you a yellow card right now, Monsieur Lemieux.