Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, let's bring this meeting to order. We do have a number of witnesses to go through today, who have joined us and will be joining us, so I don't want to get too far behind.

First, I want to thank everybody for coming out this morning. As you well know, pursuant to the committee's order of reference of Thursday, November 7, 2007, the committee is here to study Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (expanded voting opportunities) and to make a consequential amendment to the Referendum Act.

Members, I want to remind everybody that we are in a larger room today still. At the request of some members, we are still going to have a larger room as a result of the number of folks who do tend to join us, both staff and observers, as well as the number of witnesses we're going through during our study.

Members, the meeting is still being televised. At the end of this meeting we have some housekeeping duties to go through, so I'm going to reserve about 15 minutes at the end to talk about some things, including the budget of this committee, the fact that the Ethics Commissioner wants to come informally to meet the committee. I want to have some discussions with members about when we should do that, and some other things that we'll talk about at the end of the meeting. One of them will be whether we continue to televise these meetings. It's entirely up to members, and I will bend to the will of the committee.

As we begin, we have three witnesses with us this morning, and I do want to thank them for coming out. It's always a pleasure, and it's actually quite an honour for members of the community to come forward, for parliamentarians to ask questions and get a full and broad visual, I suppose, or a thought process going on the bills at hand.

Colleagues, we have with us Mr. McDonald from the Baptist General Conference of Canada, Mr. Cryer from the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, and Reverend Roberts from the United Church of Canada.

First, I would like to welcome the witnesses again. I will offer you 10 minutes, about two to three minutes each, to introduce yourselves, and if you have an opening statement, feel free to go forward with that. You don't have to do that, but it's entirely up to you.

Colleagues, I think we'll continue after that with our usual rounds of questioning. I believe we can start with a seven-minute round for the first one. We'll see how things go. We'll have these witnesses with us only for one hour, so you can use your time to get as many questions in and answers as you deem fit.

Perhaps we can start with Mr. McDonald. Please introduce yourself, and perhaps you have an opening statement.

Thank you.

[Jamey McDonald, Executive Director, Baptist General Conference of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Jamey McDonald, and I apologize at the outset because I do not have a written submission to go before you. I have a written submission in front of me, but the late invitation came to me at the latter part of last week. Je parle français, mais I can't write in French. So I do not have a written presentation. But I will read something to you.

Thank you very much. I consider it a real privilege to be able to speak with you this morning. I am a passionate believer in this grand experiment called Canada. I travel the world in my line of work, and I admire all cultures, but every time I return home to Canada, I thank God for what we have here. It is truly the best country in the world.

I also respect very much what you are trying to do in bringing leadership and governance to this great country. Thank you. It's not easy, is it? As good as Canada is, we can always do better. So thank you for doing your best to bring better to Canada.

I want to address your proposal suggested through Bill C-16, and especially your suggestion to allow advance polls to occur on Sundays before our election dates.

Who am I? Number one, I am the executive director of the Baptist General Conference of Canada. According to the latest census data, Baptists make up about 2% of the Canadian population. That's perhaps 750,000 adults. There are five major Baptist groups in Canada. I speak for one of them. A good number of our present members of Parliament would call a Baptist church their home base. Tommy Douglas was a Baptist minister before stepping into political life.

Historically, Baptists have always heeded to the separation of church and state, asking that though we may influence each other, we shall not dictate to each other. Today is not different. My comments today as a Baptist minister are not designed to dictate to this group. I merely offer observations and opinions.

Second, you need to understand me. I am also a church attender. Recent data suggests that over 30% of Canada still attends church on a regular basis, at least monthly if not weekly. This suggests that close to 11 million Canadians would still identify themselves as churchgoers, and by implication, 70% would not.

This is my point. I realize that the intent of this bill is to encourage more Canadians to participate in their democratic right to vote, but I'm of the opinion that opening polls on a Sunday would not in fact do so and may in fact have a deleterious effect.

I would ask you to consider the wisdom of opening advance polls on Sundays. Why? There are three reasons. First is what I call the irritation factor. Not all Canadians attend church on Sundays, but 30% do, and I wonder if bringing voting to that day would not irritate them, or at least make the government vulnerable to irritating a fairly large segment of our population.

Second is what I call the disenfranchisement factor. Not all Canadians meet in church buildings for their Sunday services. About 5% of our congregations, the ones I am overseeing, use schools, community halls, and public places on a rental basis. In most cases these congregations are new Canadians; they're new to Canada. They're first-generation Canadians, and they struggle to have the financial resources to afford their own church properties. Thus, they rent public facilities. If these public locations are also used for advance polls, my thoughts are that the election will trump their church service, and at least some worshippers will be disenfranchised, even if only for a Sunday or two.

Third, I raise the question of what I call the non-effectiveness factor. At present, eligible Canadians participate in the voting process perhaps at the 50 to 60 percentile, if days are good; if you live in Saskatchewan, it's 70.

We have advance poll dates well publicized. We even have legislation in place that mandates that employers allow their employees a minimum of four hours of available time in order to vote before public polls close. I'm not persuaded that low voter turnout is because of an inability to get to an advance poll or even to an election day station. I wonder if the apathy is deeper rooted.

In conclusion, may I encourage this committee to show wisdom and not alter advance polling to include Sundays around election day. Please keep thinking, but go longer and harder in your thought processes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Cryer, please.

[Doug Cryer, Director, Public Policy, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada]

I am Doug Cryer. I am the director of public policy for the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.

The EFC is a national organization that has affiliate denominations--40 different denominations--and over 100 different ministry organizations as well as about 40 institutes of higher Christian education.

The EFC encourages active civic engagement and recognizes that we all benefit when Canadian citizens exercise their right and their duty to vote. Providing more voting opportunities might be helpful to increase voter turnout. However, the proposal made in Bill C-16 to set up advance polls on two Sundays before the federal election day will have a significant impact on Christians whose day of worship is Sunday. The question we are asking is, will churches be competing with federal elections on Sundays? Or we could ask why they should intrude on religious observance days at all.

The addition of the advance poll on the Sunday before the election is the most problematic, because rather than it being a typical advance poll with limited voting stations, every polling station will be open just as it would be on an election day. In a recent internal poll that we conducted within the EFC, we asked whether people agreed that there should be an advance poll with all polling stations open on the day before a Monday election. Four hundred and ten people responded out of 1,300, and 84% of them said no, that they were not in favour of this proposal. This response indicates that there could be widespread disapproval of this initiative, and rather than strengthening the voting process, it would run the risk of turning more people away.

Many Christians still count Sundays as their Sabbath day of rest and a day dedicated to family. Some latest statistics, as already mentioned, demonstrated that 32% of Canadians, or 11 million people, attend worship at least monthly. Christians, as an identifiable minority in Canada with already established habits and practices on Sundays, are clearly the most affected by these proposed advanced polls.

The proposed change also means that churches will be in competition with Elections Canada for rental space, a point already made by Mr. McDonald. Churches that host polling stations in their church halls will be affected, unless the polls are moved elsewhere, and in countless growing communities across Canada it is not unusual for a church to rent space in local school gymnasiums or in community halls--the same places where Elections Canada will be vying to rent space for their polling stations. Other activities are often displaced to accommodate polling stations on election days.

Should Christians bear an undue burden in their accommodation of these proposed changes where their regularly established worship arrangements may be disrupted? There are many questions as to how to encourage more people to vote. Ultimately, however, the government should not infringe on the worship practices of a substantial religious community when it is not essential to do so.

I believe you have our three recommendations that we handed out to you regarding this bill.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cryer.

Reverend Roberts, please.

[Rev. Lillian Roberts, Reverend, Ottawa Presbytery, The United Church of Canada]

I'm Reverend Lillian Roberts. I'm here representing the United Church of Canada. I am a staff person for Ottawa Presbytery.

The United Church of Canada is the largest Protestant denomination in our country. The concerns that I bring before you this morning are practical in nature, but they do also speak to the relationship and the connection that individual participants in the faith community are able to make with their civic understandings and responsibilities.

Many of our church buildings throughout the country do in fact serve as polling stations both on the day of election and on the days of advance polls. This is the case as often our church buildings are well known in the community and are physically accessible.

The concern I want to raise regarding the proposed changes in legislation arise from the implications of the bill on the availability and ability of churches to share in the civic process. The proposed changes will now stipulate that all polling stations open on polling day will also be open on the last day of advance polls, which is the Sunday immediately before the election. The provision is that the advance polls will be open from noon until 8 p.m. While this may be possible in some United churches, it will be difficult for others to clear the space for polling stations on a Sunday morning by noon. The result will be that these congregations will therefore find themselves ineligible for use as a regular polling station.

Certainly this will have a direct effect on some churches that have experienced a welcome source of rental income that comes from participating, but of more concern is the loss of participation in the civic process. Many United Church congregations are organizers of all-candidates forums, and they encourage their members and adherents to participate and take seriously their right and responsibility to be a part of the democratic process. The physical location of local polling stations in our churches helps us to strengthen the message and to encourage participation.

For a number of years, I served in a suburban congregation here in the city, Rideau Park United Church on Alta Vista Drive, which is a regular polling station for the elections, and indeed, the hosting of election day prompted a greater sense of involvement in the electoral process.

It appears to me that a couple of options could be considered. The first is the severing of the requirement that the regular polling stations be in the same location as the advance polls on the day before the election. The other option is to adjust the hours even by one hour. A 1 p.m. start would allow for more congregations to be able to transition into making their space available.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much, Reverend.

Colleagues, we're going to start our first round of questioning. It will be seven minutes long. I'm looking for hands to go up.

Madame Robillard, you're up first. You have seven minutes, please.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To begin with, I would like to thank our guests for appearing before the committee today. If I understood you correctly, you all seem to be of the same opinion and that is that having two additional polling days would have a major impact on churchgoers.

And yet, when the minister appeared before us and outlined his bill, he made particular mention of the fact that currently there are three provinces that have Sunday as a polling day. I can remember him referring to Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Quebec does not use Sunday as a polling day, but Sunday is used for advanced polling which takes place the week prior to election.

So I would ask each of you the following question: if you have any experience of polling in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and perhaps Quebec, what is the impact of voting on Sundays?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Madam Robillard, is that for any particular witness?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

For each one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McDonald, you're first.

[Jamey McDonald]

In the Baptist Church of Canada we say to our people that they are free to exercise their conscience, and so on Sundays they have a choice of engaging or not engaging. We have encouraged our people to use the Sunday as a day of rest and worship, saying you have options to go on other days. So make your choices, but understand that Sunday is not a favourable day to us. Our people are free to make choices, but we advise them to use other days.

So it has not destroyed us, but we have encouraged them to use other days.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

In provinces where there is Sunday polling, do people turn out to vote?

[Jamey McDonald]

On Sundays?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes, in Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

[Jamey McDonald]

I cannot comment on that. I don't know that answer, my friend.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

You don't know, okay.

[Doug Cryer]

I can answer the question indirectly by the poll that I just mentioned to you that we conducted on our members. It had 84% of them disagreeing to having the advance polls open on Sundays.

We're a federal organization and so we monitor more closely the federal activities, which is why we're here. And I couldn't comment on voter activity at the provincial level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Reverend.

[Rev. Lillian Roberts]

I'm not able to say that the United Church has made a response in any of those provincial contexts. I think the reason we wanted to make a response today is our concern that making it more difficult for churches to participate by being physically available as polling stations sends a message that somehow churches are not being invited to be partners in the civic process and responsibility. That's what we would be concerned about.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Ms. Roberts, could you elaborate on the recommendation you made to our committee?

[Rev. Lillian Roberts]

There are two possibilities. The second was simply to move the polling time one hour later, which would allow for Sunday morning worship and activities to be concluded in a church building and for the building to be open by one o'clock rather than noon.

The other option is to sever the requirement that the advance poll be in the same location as the regular poll. As in many cases now, the advance polls are not in the same location as the regular polling station on election day, and that would normally, then, free up church buildings to be available for the regular election day process without having to also be available on the Sunday for the advance polls.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

When the Chief Electoral Officer came and testified before this committee last week, he referred to the obligation to vote on the eve of polling day, in other words on the Sunday prior to an election. The bill stipulates that all polling stations shall open on this day, just like on polling day. He also said that this would be impossible in several locations, especially in places where people come to vote at the town church. As a result, the Sunday polling location would have to be different from the Monday location, which would present an additional difficulty.

Are you following me?

[Rev. Lillian Roberts]

I'm not sure what would be the additional problem by having another location.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

To begin with, it would be hard to get voters to understand that on Sunday, they are able to vote at a particular location and that on Monday, they would have to vote elsewhere. Secondly, the same would be true for electoral employees. Thirdly, the process is not the same, which is more of a technical issue. Basically, the Chief Electoral Officer told us that currently polling day is Monday. However, several polling stations are located in churches, especially in rural areas, which would be a problem if polling were to be held on a Sunday.

Do you agree?