Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we have time for one seven-minute round, so I'm going to encourage members to share their time, if you feel that you need to ask or other members of your party need to ask.

We're going to start with Mr. Bagnell. You have seven minutes in total, please.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I have one question, and then I'll see if other members of my party have questions. It's for Ilona.

My first comment is that I've had a lot of interaction with your organization. You do some great events, and also I've received a lot of written things. I certainly commend you for this effort. Someone needs to do it, and you guys are doing a tremendous job right across the country.

My question is, why do young people not vote; and what specific, concrete actions can we as a society take, and specifically can we as federal politicians take, to get a larger turnout of youth vote?

[Ilona Dougherty]

There are several points to that question. One is that young people are democratically involved in a lot of different ways, but there's a disconnect between traditional political institutions and the places where young people are. We really encourage members of Parliament and all of our community leaders to go to places where young people are and make sure there is a dialogue not just during election time, but all year round, between youth and members of Parliament. Often members of Parliament feel really distant. We don't feel we can access those people who are making big decisions on our behalf.

Another critical point is that young people don't feel that the business, especially of federal politics, affects their lives. There's a real disconnect in terms of their day-to-day lives and how they feel federal politics impacts them, so when voting comes around, it doesn't feel important. They don't really know why it's that important.

I think a third thing would be civic education. There is a lack of understanding and knowledge of what our democracy really is. There's also definitely a lack of opportunity for young people who are not engaged and who do not step up necessarily to the opportunity right off the bat to become engaged in democracy in ways that feel comfortable and interesting and dynamic to them.

I would encourage members of Parliament to both come to our events and dialogue with youth that way and also make sure that you are really reaching out to young people. We have a worksheet on our website with about ten tips to get young people to get out to vote. I would encourage you to read that as well.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'm very interested, Mr. Chair, in Mr. Anderson's allusion to the idea of cheating. I am also concerned about that fact. I'm wondering, with his experience inside political parties, whether he would agree with me that a lot of it has to do with the opportunities provided by a totally inadequate and inaccurate list; in other words, a list that has far too many names on it—names of people who moved away ten years ago and no longer live at that address. Has he ever identified that from his position working inside a party?

[Rick Anderson]

Of course, I would hasten to add that I have no direct experience with cheating.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I didn't think you did, but I mean as an observer.

[Rick Anderson]

I have heard people, all too casually and with too much level of detail, talk about it. I believe from my experience that it's not as uncommon as we would hope. There are many ridings, of course, where the result is not close enough for this to be particularly material, but there are many ridings where that's not true.

On the question of a permanent voters list, first of all, as a general proposition I think it's a positive step that we've established a permanent voters list rather than the “hurry up and create one out of nothing” exercise that preceded that. On the other hand, the sources of it and the scrutiny it's given between elections are really quite varied and uneven in their quality. I think it may behoove voters, the parties, the candidates, and the participants in the process to spend more time—or maybe Elections Canada to spend more time—validating and double-checking the information that's there.

I think it's better done this way than it was in the past, but the opportunities for false names or erroneous names to be on the voters list have expanded. I think it's time to spend some time addressing corrective measures.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

You would agree with me that work on the list—the improvement, the corrections, etc., that could be done between elections—might actually have a bigger effect upon raising the percentage turnout than anything proposed in this bill by expanding voting opportunities.

[Rick Anderson]

To the extent that there are names on the list that shouldn't be there, and that therefore, if they were taken off, you would have a higher proportion of eligible voters voting at the end of the day, I guess that's correct.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

There remain not quite two minutes.

Madame Robillard, please. You'll have a minute and a half.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am very pleased to see that here is a group which cares about the participation of young people in our democratic process. I would like to congratulate you as well for having provided us with a translated document.

First, I would like to know whether your organization is also based in Quebec, because I have never heard about it. Second, do you believe that extending the advance poll period by two days will lead to an increase in the number of young people who vote?

[Ilona Dougherty]

I came from Montreal today. Our offices are located at the corner of Pine Avenue and Saint-Laurent Boulevard.

We're in your riding, actually, and we've worked really hard, or closely

with English and French groups. Most of the young people we work with in Quebec City are anglophones, but we also work closely with the Forum jeunesse de la région de Québec, which works with young francophones. Both groups work together.

I believe that accessibility is very important for young people.

I myself have had times where I missed the advance polling days and then election day. Because I work with Apathy is Boring, I was doing television interviews somewhere other than my riding, and then, oh, oh, what do you do? So I know that with the transient nature of youth, often being in one place on a specific day is challenging. Advance polls happen in advance, so you don't necessarily think about it when those days are happening. So I think accessibility is really critical, and I know personally I would have taken advantage of polling the day before the actual federal election several times if I'd had the opportunity.

Just to raise one other point about the voting list, the transient nature of youth is a problem, and one of the main reasons, I think, logistically that youth aren't voting is that they don't have proof of residence when they're at university. There's a major issue, I would argue, there around youth and their transient residences.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you. That ends that round.

Mr. Preston, you're up, and I notice that you want to share with some of your colleagues.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I will certainly share with my friends, because they're sharing desserts with me—one way to my heart, apparently.

First of all, thank you both for coming. Your views on the subject are both diverse but coming at it from the same way too.

I agree with you that apathy is boring, so I'll say that. You mentioned something in your speech about--I don't know if you called it civic literacy, but it's a term we have used too--the teaching of what's going on out there. I do a fair bit of work with youth who don't understand what I do as a member of Parliament. It's kind of an after-the-question. What's this other thing you're doing, Joe? It's a real educational piece, and I think that has to happen.

But on the topic of the bill that we're talking about here today, I mentioned it in the last meeting. We had some other witnesses, before you, today. I'm not sure if you got to hear what they were saying, but I keep saying we just can't keep doing the same things and expect it will get better. I think that's really what both of you are saying.

Is this the absolute solution? I think not. I've not heard that from either of you. But at least it's a step forward. As you said, if you'd had another opportunity day, you might have taken it. I've heard that same anecdotal evidence in my own riding from not only youth but hard-working business people who have said, “You know, I just didn't have the chance to get away from the shop today. If I'd had another day, I might have gone.” But it's still not the answer. It's a convenience factor. This one addresses a bit of the convenience factor. It's not everything.

Mr. Anderson, you mentioned some of the integrity issues. It really doesn't address those all that clearly either, but we have other pieces of legislation that are trying to do that.

I'd like to ask you a bit more about that convenience factor. I come from a rural riding, and for youth in rural situations, it's a transportation issue in a lot of cases. This gives them one more advance poll at least closer to home. In most cases, advance polls are many hours or at least an hour away from home. This gives them one day of an election process with a convenience factor, that they're now close to home.

Can I get you to comment on that, and then I'll share time with my colleagues.

[Rick Anderson]

As I said, I think that's a positive thing. I think it can only help, so it's quite a positive step. As I also said, I think we should be careful to understand the difference between improving the convenience factor of voting versus increasing the contextual issues.

I think the larger part of the reason people are not voting in the numbers that we might wish they would vote is a weakened motivation for participation. I wouldn't probably call it apathy, because I think you find lots of people who have quite strong views about politics and are actually quite well informed who don't bother to vote. To some extent that is about convenience, so the steps you're talking about in this bill to make it more convenient for people to vote or to get on a voters list and be eligible to vote are positive steps. But I think, for the larger part of the 35%, give or take, of Canadians who are not voting, it's not a convenience factor.

[Ilona Dougherty]

There are three things I would like to raise. The first is that we need to look at civic education of individuals in the 18- to 35-year-old bracket who are not voting. That's a major issue and something we're trying to address.

Also, a big question is where are the polling stations? Are they on university campuses? Are they in buildings where young people go and where they feel comfortable going?

Third, I think the issue of technology is critical. Sure, an advance polling day in person makes a difference, but I would believe that a lot of my generation feels that technology can play a role and should play a role in our democratic process.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Monsieur Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you for your presentations.

Actually, you might have just answered one of my questions: when you're focusing on apathy in youth, how do you define youth? Did you say 18 to 35 years old?

[Ilona Dougherty]

Yes, 18 to 35.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Do you find that their particular circumstances play a role--for example, if someone is single, someone is married, someone is employed, someone is unemployed, a student versus employed? What has your experience been on that?

[Ilona Dougherty]

Students are more transient generally. Once you get a job, you tend to stay in more or less the same place.

But no, it's not an issue of “maturity”, that all of a sudden you get married, buy a house, and you're going to be more involved. Socio-economic realities do have an impact on civic engagement; however, it's more about your first voting experience. If you don't have a good first voting experience when you're 18, or soon after, you are statistically less likely to be involved throughout your entire life.

We're talking about a generational issue here. In 2006, give or take 36% of young people voted. If we look 20 years down the road, that's what we're looking at in terms of the number of citizens who will likely be participating in elections. It's generational.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I was only going to comment that I think the intent of the bill would be advantageous to youth. If there is a factor of maturity that plays in there, there's a certain sense of confidence you need in order to tell your boss that you're going to vote, as opposed to waiting for your boss to ask you if you've voted yet and to give you a couple of hours off. So a certain amount of maturity and confidence goes together there.

I was also reading that one challenge in youth participation is in the area of conflicting commitments. By providing additional opportunities to vote, there's less opportunity for things to conflict all the way through.

[Ilona Dougherty]

Totally. I think accessibility, along with more opportunities for young people, really does help, given, as I said, the transient nature of our lives.